We've published our big border show and now take a chance to reflect on the production (and why it took so long) as we ease back into weekly episodes. A lot happened over the past few months and we briefly address new border developments, the Australian Fires, and the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. Daniel chats about business, Christopher Columbus, and cannibalism and you don't want to miss it.
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(This transcript is machine generated, incomplete, and bad. We'll fix it soon!)
[00:00:00] Are you playing the thing or should I just go,
[00:00:03] Uh, just go,
[00:00:06] I'm David Torcivia
[00:00:08] I'm Daniel Forkner.
[00:00:10] and this is ashes, ashes. A show about systemic issues, cracks in civilization, collapse of the environment, and if we're unlucky, the end of the world.
[00:00:20] But if we learn from all of this, maybe we can stop that. The world might be broken, but it doesn't have to be.
[00:00:32] Ah, okay. We did. Yeah,
[00:00:37] It happened
[00:00:38] it happened. So we're back. Okay. Back in studio
[00:00:43] back, baby.
[00:00:44] after. It was just a couple of weeks. Right,
[00:00:46] Uh, that was what it was originally supposed to be.
[00:00:50] right. Okay. So can we talk about the last time we published a show before. Uh, the walls that divide us are walls that divide us. Mmm. Which was three months ago did I think we ended that show saying, okay, everybody, Oh, we're going to take a couple of weeks off and we're going to publish a boarder show. So we're taking a couple of weeks off to focus on that and then we'll be back in a couple of weeks.
[00:01:12] And I, I, I legitimately. Dot. When we said a couple of weeks in my mind, I said, okay, that's two weeks. We'll take two weeks off. We would use that time to work on the border show and then we would publish it and looking back, I don't know why I thought it could only take two weeks, David.
[00:01:33] Okay. Yeah. Tell me about it. We were wildly, wildly optimistic. I was like, Oh yeah, you know, maybe it won't be two weeks, but we'll definitely be back before Thanksgiving. It's like, Oh, three or four weeks from now, and then we'll be cruising through the end of the year. So no problem. No problem at all. Well, like you said, this was three months, a little bit over three months actually.
[00:01:55] And uh, we ended up with something that I think is, is pretty good. And, uh, it's definitely long. Whether that's good or bad, I don't, I don't know. But. This was a learning experience
[00:02:06] And we're going to break it up into chapters and different episodes. That's part of the process, which we can talk about, but I just want it, I want to just think about where we were at when we took this break. I'll, I'll tell you where I was at so. I had just moved up to Massachusetts. So we went to Tucson, um, Arizona with humane borders that was in, ah, okay.
[00:02:30] August. So as soon as we finished that, I came back to Atlanta. I packed up all my things in, you know, three or four days, and then I drove up to Massachusetts where I moved into a new house, got a new job, and then got a second job. And that's where we were at at that
[00:02:47] Well, and we were still publishing weekly episodes at this point, so.
[00:02:50] Oh, yeah, that's true.
[00:02:51] Right after your move. We released another episode. This was August, and we release through September, and then we finally, uh, in, in October, October 10th was our last episode before this break started. So you were moving, working two jobs plus ashes, which is basically a third job, also, we have this border thing hanging over us has like a fourth job.
[00:03:14] The knife that just hung over. My head all the time, and this is what, so when we decided to take the break, this is what we had. We had all the audio that we recorded in the desert, which was four hours of raw audio then.
[00:03:28] Uh, of, of just that trip, uh, into the desert with Doug. Four hours of raw audio, but times four, cause we had four different mikes running. So I mean, a lot of audio.
[00:03:38] Then I had done those interviews with for guests, and each of those was about an hour and a half, so we had. Let's say about 10 hours of raw audio that hadn't been edited yet. Plus we hadn't even thought really through the outline of the show. So we, I mean, we
[00:03:54] We had, we had like a basic, you know, this is the sections we want to talk about that. Where are we now? How do we get here and what can we do? But that was about as far as the way I thought through this at this point.
[00:04:05] Yup. And then we took the break and it was like, okay, we got all this audio that's unedited. We had to come up with an outline. We actually have to fill it out with research. I don't know why we thought we could do all that in two weeks.
[00:04:16] Oh, well, I think we were thinking about maybe that nuclear episode, which ended up being almost three hours long, and we did it over the course of two weeks and we're like, Oh yeah, we can, we can do a long form episode. No problem. If we take three weeks where we don't have to do any sort of weekly commitment, and this is no problem.
[00:04:36] Yeah, but we did it. . I know you've been really busy, David, but I have to admit, I also underestimated the, the effect it would have on me to move up to a new state and start all these new jobs. It's, it's been, um, it's been difficult at times. I'll will admit I've been stressed. A work life balance is something that's very difficult.
[00:04:58] I mean, there are days where I'll go into them my day job from nine until 6:00 PM, and then I get home. And then I just go straight to work on on another job, and then, you know, 10 o'clock at night, I'm like, you know, I should do some ashes, ashes stuff. And then by the time it's like 11 or a clock at night, I'm like, man, I don't want to just go to sleep because then I have no free time.
[00:05:21] I have no free time. I haven't gotten to enjoy this day. So I stay up way too late. And then I wake up with five hours of sleep and have to do it all over again. And this.
[00:05:30] Okay. That was like me this week. So the final rush up to get this show actually out, cause eventually we're just, we set a date. We said we okay has to be out by this point and we're just going to stick to that. Well, I ended up working, uh, crazy hours this week for my regular work and then this on top of it.
[00:05:47] So I basically had four or five days where I just. I would wake up in the morning, work all day, um, and wrap-up work, you know, six most days, and then come home and then work all night until it's, and one in the morning and then go to bed and do it again for multiple days on end. And then it culminated in that Wednesday before where we're trying to finally get this out.
[00:06:07] I had worked all day, came home, finished up, stop the episode, finally got it published at 2:00 AM, went to sleep, woke up the next morning, and then I worked from, um, I, I got to work at nine 30 and I left. At work at six to go to another job, and I started at seven and I left that second job at, uh, 12:30 AM and then went home.
[00:06:29] So it was continuous, nonstop section of work. The moral of this story, everyone is, don't burn yourself out because it sucks.
[00:06:38] Yeah. Wow. And it's, it's hard to take care of yourself in this, uh. Fantastic economy we've, we have here where we just work all the time. Right? Like, I mean, I have a, you know, not been on a very disciplined eating schedule. I've lost like a ton of weight since I moved up here. Plus I switched over to becoming a vegetarian four months ago or so.
[00:07:00] Mmm. But I don't actually know how to cook very well. So it's just been kind of like, well, I just won't eat today because whatever, it doesn't really matter. Um, but. It's difficult to manage relationships and mental health when you work that much right.
[00:07:16] Yeah, absolutely. Plus, in addition to that, if you're interested in any sort of activism, organizing outside of all this other stuff, it just, it never ends. I go to so many meetings constantly and. Writing so many things and everyone needs something all the time and it's a lot to balance and I haven't been exercising because of it.
[00:07:36] And you got to take care of yourself. And that's something important to remember. I think part of the reason why we ended up taking so long to get this episode out was because we were a little burned out at the beginning of this, and we just needed a couple of weeks off to sort of start recuperating.
[00:07:51] And uh. I know I was, I was really slogging at that point, you know, the episodes felt a little forced and I wasn't excited to do them. And now that we're back to weekly episodes, I'm like, Oh, this is great. This is going to be so easy and so fun and I, I can't wait to do it. So, uh, I think a little time off is good for that.
[00:08:10] And, uh, I'm excited for some stuff we have coming up and I hope all of you are as well as we get back into the swing of these weekly episodes. But. Uh, I'm glad we did this, Daniel, and I think it's important and okay. No, there's a lot of border coverage as you noticed, if you looked at the sources for our, uh, our walls episode, but, um, a lot of it is just little updates on like the new horrifying thing that happened.
[00:08:36] And I think it's important to have media sources that are, are in depth about know everything. So you can figure out not only what has just happened most recently, but why this is all happening. And that why is missing so much from a lot of this analysis. So I think what we did is important to have available to people, but I, I'm glad it's done.
[00:08:56] Or is it.
[00:08:57] W or is it, well, why don't we talk about what our plans are because we're not done with it. Right? I mean, I've been listening to walls that divide us and I've noticed a couple of editing mistakes we made here and there. So we'll go back and. Fix those. We have to promote it. We have to. You built this new website for it where it will live, uh, at borders dot ashes, ashes.org so we can talk about why that platform exists.
[00:09:24] I mean, we're going to break this up too. I mean, you know, it's seven hours is a long time for an episode.
[00:09:29] Absolutely not. Everyone wants to start an episode that they see it in their podcast app is seven hours, 45 minutes. That's. Imposing. So we're going to break these up into separate chapters as, as separate downloadable links so that you don't have to look at this as one massive thing to slog through, but yup.
[00:09:46] Separate chapters to dig into whenever you find the time or have the energy for, uh, because not only is it a lot of information, but a lot of it is depressing information and it's honestly probably not great for your mental health to spend all day going through this single episode. But, you know, hats off to those of you who did that a year.
[00:10:04] The real heroes out here.
[00:10:05] And, yeah, a couple of people actually did. I've seen the discord where three days after we published it, someone was like, eight finished already. Uh, can't wait for what's next. Um, hats off to you. But yeah, w the idea of this show was, you know, there's just so much to unpack with this immigration crisis, and we wanted to kind of present the most comprehensive.
[00:10:27] Systemic analysis from every perspective that we could, at least in this initial effort. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to start at the history of border patrol. If you want to dive into how the system benefits those in power, or you know, you want a little bit of a history lesson on how central America in the migration flows coming out of their play into all this.
[00:10:49] You shouldn't have to start at the beginning, and so that's why we're going to break it up.
[00:10:53] Yeah, and this also gives us an opportunity to go back and start adding more sections and things that we didn't have the time to cover or we didn't feel like fit in exactly in any specific area. There's so much more than that. We still need to add and this many borders, website, this borders that ashes to ashes.org is something that we're going to utilize.
[00:11:12] For that purpose, and we're really excited to have this here because not only can it be a new audio stories and new clips and episodes and things, but also, Oh, we're going to put up a, our photo series from our trip out there so people can actually see these beautiful cacti. You can see the, the massive Desi.
[00:11:30] You can see this horrifying border patrol museum, which I don't know if we even mentioned in this, in that particular episode, but we have talked about in other chat episodes on this show. There's so much still to add. And there's, there's updates constantly. So after this episode came out on the 13th, literally the next day on February 14th, there was a traumatic new update, uh, in border patrol and, uh, the United States law enforcement, which we'll talk about in just a little bit.
[00:11:57] So th this situation is constantly changing, and that's something that happened throughout the making of this episode where. We were constantly adding new information. If you look at the sources, you'll see they go up, right? Two, a couple of days before the episode came out, we were constantly updating stuff and adding new bits because the situation is just deteriorating constantly.
[00:12:17] Unfortunately.
[00:12:18] And this new website platform exists because there are so many border issues around the world, and we don't want to just. Focus exclusively on immigration at the us Mexico border, or the authoritarian controls of human flows that are through an exclusively American lens. I mean, these types of systems that benefit power, but exploit the movement of people and the precarity of, you know, criminalizing citizenship and ethnicity.
[00:12:48] These issues resonate around the world. So. Reach out to us. Where can we highlight these types of systems going on outside the United States?
[00:12:58] Yeah, and we'd love to share those stories, that information and whatever else he might have. Our email address is always open for these types of things. That contact at ashes, ashes.org you could send us Twitter or Reddit messages. Our sub right is ashes, ashes cast our Twitter, his ashes, ashes cast as well.
[00:13:16] Em's on Instagram with the same user name, or you can call us directly and leave a voicemail that we can embed on this, and the number for that is three one three nine nine ashes. That's three one three nine nine two seven four, three, seven. That's an American number. If you're international, don't want to make that call.
[00:13:36] You can always record yourself and then email it to us at that same email address. And, uh, we can add all this information. We can share your stories. And if you have any other content that you think would be appropriate for discussing the board or discussing migrants, no, I'm just in the United States, but around the world.
[00:13:50] Please share it with us. We want to make this into an incredible resource, and our listeners have so much information, so much knowledge, so much experience. We would love to help share it with everyone else. So. Get in touch with us and help us build this border resource. Because as we mentioned in the show, this is a microcosm of what's coming, the climate catastrophes that are on the horizon, if not already here, and let's be honest, they are these walls, these borders, these flows of refugees, of migrants a crisis that's only going to get worse.
[00:14:21] And so knowing the issues that we're facing and knowing how to deal with them right now is as important as anything else going on in this world.
[00:14:29] Absolutely. Now you mentioned, um, an article on the 14th. David.
[00:14:35] Yes, this was a New York times piece that I saw, and I'm, I'm actually not sure who the original a reporter was, but it's a, an article which we'll embed on the website. That is called border patrol. We'll deploy elite tactical agents to sanctuary cities. You've probably seen this floating around online if you're on Twitter or on Reddit.
[00:14:53] This was sort of the big news on Friday and Saturday. The very short version of this is that the border patrol has a special elite tactical unit that we actually saw information about in that border patrol museum. This tactical unit is known as for TAC, B. O, R, T. a. C. And they're kind of like a SWAT team of border patrol.
[00:15:13] They do various sorts of interdiction when they're suspected drug or a weapons. They're also found in some of the most difficult places to get to on the border. I have a variety of tools and uses, but what is concerning is that recently this has been turned more into. Uh, a very intense group of people who are traveling all around the country in order to enforce these ever-increasing border restrictions.
[00:15:40] Yeah. We've addressed the route this show, and this latest decree from Trump is that he's sending out many of the members of this elite unit, two sanctuary cities, places like New York, San Francisco, Atlanta, in order to basically force them to start cracking down on immigrants. Because he's pissed off more or less that they haven't done so, and that they've resisted the federal governments direction to do that.
[00:16:06] in a weird way, we sort of seen a reversal of, of conservatives who have always been historically state's rights. And now that the federal government is someone that they support, now it's, you should deal with the federal government does and screw you States and cities who are trying to resist this. But I mean, that's it.
[00:16:22] Another conversation, um. A lot of people saw this. A lot of people are scared and, uh, there's a number of reasons why. Well, we should be, and we'll get into those in just a moment. But on first glance with what this is talking about, I don't think it's cool, quite as bad, uh, for the reasons that New York times or these other articles are trying to push it's a hundred officers deployed across the country too.
[00:16:44] Um, you know, a dozen sanctuary cities, so they're actual impact of these individual officers. It's going to be. Fairly limited and, and they're, their main forces is going to try and be scaring people into actually doing these raids of actually arresting people, both local ice enforcers as well as local law enforcement.
[00:17:03] But there are larger concerns beyond just this initial surge of, of elite units throughout the sanctuary cities.
[00:17:11] And as we talked about in the border show in part one chapter a 1.4 and our discussion about public safety versus national security, making people scared to live within their own communities is something that impacts the safety of all of us negatively. Of course. And can I just read from Jen bud, who's a former senior border patrol agent who's turned against what they saw is just evil and inhumane culture throughout the entire organization.
[00:17:42] They wrote on February 12th a few days ago. Yeah. I recently spent some time talking privately with a former Washington D C customs and border patrol, senior management official, and this is what stuck with me. Border patrol does not believe they are a civilian law enforcement agency. They believe they are kin to the Marine Corps.
[00:18:04] They do not believe they are accountable to Congress, which is why they have no issues lying to them even while under oath. They believe they are only accountable to the president. And even then only to presidents like Trump. Border patrol believes it is not required to answer to local police, FBI, CIA, or any other agency.
[00:18:25] They claim to be the premier law enforcement agency superior to all others, and they say they will be coming national police force to be used by a president to enforce laws, even amongst citizens. They know their forces are larger than is necessary. That is why they created this fake crisis. They know they have more gear than they need.
[00:18:48] That is why they stress emergency response so they can get more. And I am telling you this comes from as high as you can get. This is why they have amassed such a force. I think what stands out to me about this, David, is we kinda talked about this, but we didn't really go in depth in the episode, but.
[00:19:07] This is kind of the consequences of empowering these types of agencies and what is quickly becoming the secret police in this country. It's not a reasonable to foresee a future where us citizens will be answering directly to CBP agents, um, in many contexts, maybe at the airport or the train station.
[00:19:25] Because another point that we didn't really talk about last week in episode 96, but you did bring this up, David, in, um, that episode on maps, uh, episode 60 drawn apart is how no border or no political border is just a single line, right? Borders exist everywhere. You know, we have borders between us States.
[00:19:47] We have borders between counties, borders between city boroughs. Mmm. Your utility companies use boarders. Orders are nothing more than just a layered zone of control for human activity. And what that means is that all these borders that we interact with are impacting the services that we can access our transportation, our water, electricity, our schools, our internet.
[00:20:12] And the more we as a public say that it's okay to empower men with guns too, enforce one border, the more we invite that level of authoritarian control into every single aspect of our lives, all of our lives, not just those trying to enter the country.
[00:20:29] I think this is a really important point, Daniel, and something that we tried to drive home with this borders benefits, powers section in the episode, but even expanding beyond that, like you just did these. Allowances that we give these groups. They changed the way they think. It changes the way they interact with everybody, and it paves the way for a darker, more authoritarian future.
[00:20:51] And I don't want to be the person standing around yelling, you know, fascist. And these are, these are Brown shirts that we've created. These are Gestapo, even though maybe I should be, but if there's a point where you, you want to stop and say, you know, this is. A really bad development moving forward. Well, this is a really good place to stop and do that.
[00:21:09] yeah, it's election year. Who knows what's going to happen. Uh, who knows if, uh, the Democrats can pull their head out of their ass and actually nominate somebody worth nominating. Who knows if a Trump, we'll be able to bully that person. Or if a. They will actually get their shit together and beat the ridiculous character, and we have as president, who knows if Trump will, if he loses, decide to peacefully surrender power.
[00:21:35] Who knows? If we'll go to the second term for Trump, who knows if he will try and push that to third and beyond. There are a lot of questions in the air right now, but a militarized police force, it feels like they're only answerable to the president. A man who sees himself as as beyond the low, the supporters frequently refer to him as God, emperor Trump.
[00:21:59] That's kind of concerning for a variety of reasons. And, uh, we need to try and stop this wherever we can, however we can, and the elimination of the way that we feel about the border, the elimination of the military, ization of supporter, all of these things are important steps in that process. Border patrol agents.
[00:22:20] We need to remember they are civilians just like you and me. Just like the police. We'd all like to think that there's some sort of non civilian, uh, people, but, but they are, they're civilians. Just like all of us. They're responsible to the same laws that all of us are, and they're, they're doing an effective job.
[00:22:34] It's showing that when you, you're only responsible to the law at the law can actually punish you. And that if you are the ones who wield the force, that is the punishment of law, then that punishment never happens. Yes. Okay. We've revealed the, the big bug and this entire rule of law system that people claim the United States sticks to.
[00:22:51] Yeah. You know, this needs to be stopped and pay attention because this is where the sources of power in this government and in this world come from. And these developments are not good. So if there's, if you're somebody who's scared of authoritarianism or fascism, this is the place to be looking all eyes on this.
[00:23:09] And what starts with the immigrants. Well, quickly spread. If things start getting out of hand
[00:23:14] First they came for the socialists, et cetera, et cetera. Then they came for me.
[00:23:20] and they came for the podcasters
[00:23:23]
[00:23:23] and they came for the podcast listeners,
[00:23:25] Oh, that's right.
[00:23:28] something like that.
[00:23:29] That's why you should use a secret listening device to listen. So no one knows. You're a podcast listener, but you should also tell all your friends about ashes, ashes. But
[00:23:39]
[00:23:39]
[00:23:39] Yeah. If there's too many listeners, then a little take longer to arrest you,
[00:23:42] exactly. It's kind of like your point about if we were all just appointed a Supreme court justices, there would be no, uh, massive hierarchy of power. But you know, for all podcast listeners, they can't arrest the whole country.
[00:23:54] like a try.
[00:23:55] What else do we want to talk about, David? This is a chat show, so we don't have to, you know, there is no structure.
[00:24:01] There's no rules. We can do whatever we want. We can talk about this. Talk about that. Sing a little song we wanted to.
[00:24:08] Freestyle it in. I mean, with those dire warnings, it's sort of hard to transition. But, uh, I mean, there was a lot that happened in the past couple months. I don't want to go into any depth in this episode because there's a lot that really should be said. Um, and, and we're still very much easing our way into things.
[00:24:24] Next week. We've got a, a nice deep dive again on the SRO CC ITCC report on, uh, the disasters going on in the oceans right now, and we're excited for that. But in the meantime. With this chat episode, we just want to acknowledge that, uh, shit has been hitting the fan all over the world. Australia has been burnt to a crisp, and then after that suffered from disastrous floods and, uh, our hearts go out to all of our listeners and friends in Australia.
[00:24:53] I hope things get better, but it, it seems like this is unfortunately the beginning of a new normal. And, uh. That doesn't bode well for Australia or for the rest of the world, unfortunately, as it's sort of a preview of things to come.
[00:25:08] At least environmentally, but we still have agency over how we as human beings relate to one another in these times of crises, right? So. Always focus on community. How can we make ourselves more resilient in the face of all this, you know, environmental extremes.
[00:25:26] Yeah. That's a good point. I w even if things ended up completely out of control, which at this point it's looking like they might, that doesn't mean you have to just give up. There's still your immediate life, the life of those around you that you can help defend, protect, and uh, that's, that's how communities are formed.
[00:25:42] So that, that's a good start. Um, unfortunately there are some things at the same time, making that type of relationships difficult. And that is, for example, in China, what we've seen, the emergence of the Corona virus and the pandemic that has spread since then. Uh, again, I don't want to go into any depth to this because for starters, there's.
[00:26:03] It's still sort of opaque, exactly what has happened, what the actual numbers are, what the details are. China has done eventually an incredible job trying to lock down this pandemic. Um, it, it may have taken them a little bit a time to do that. We're not sure still, we'll find out, I'm sure in the coming years, but they eventually absolutely have taken the right.
[00:26:25] Steps and, uh, at great cost to their economy. I'm sure we'll find that out. So our hearts go out to the people of China who will have, yeah. all in ill have lost people. Um, eh, but also think about this. There are so many people who can't go to work because of this pandemic there. They're banned from going into those places.
[00:26:46] And there are plenty of people who, you know, we need to go to work in order to pay their rent in order to buy their food. And so th a pandemic like this, even if you don't get infected, it affects everyone. When things are shut down and an economy starts coming to a standstill, people's lives are being damaged, even if they never end up getting sick, even if they don't even know anybody who gets sick, it's putting people in a precarious position.
[00:27:10] I think China is a little bit better about protecting people in that situation. Then if it happened in the United States where you would basically be forced to come to work and affect your coworkers or end up homeless. So we hope that this problem does not spread. Oh, I'm sure it's going to get worse before it gets better the coming months, we'll tell about that.
[00:27:29] But there's also some sort of interesting side effects of this. I was reading an article today that noted, and this is part for a couple of reasons, I'll go into that, but noted that the particulate matter pollution over China has dropped, uh, precipitously because of this pendant. Again, because of the, the shutdowns that have happened across their economy.
[00:27:49] There you go. Air right now is actually better than the air in Europe. Partially because of the shutdowns, partially because there was a large, a cold front that's swept down and sort of cleaned out all the air that was just dwelling over the cities. But this is a good sign. It shows how quickly we can clean up our environment, but at the same time, I'm really interested to see what happens with the, uh, the local temperatures.
[00:28:12] Uh, this is sort of reminiscent on a smaller scale too. After September 11th, uh, when global air traffic was sort of put on pause.
[00:28:20] Yeah.
[00:28:21] And, uh, researchers, uh, atmospheric researchers, monumental mental researchers were able to quickly gather valuable data on what happens with the weather when this former source of particular matter of aerosols, Oh, all sorts of, of atmosphere and temperature changing variables were put on pause and we get to see what happens.
[00:28:41] Well, the same thing is happening now in China. Is this in a longer term gonna adjust temperatures. It's going to be very important research coming out of this in the coming months and years. That will pave the way for, I'm sure, plenty of papers on a global Damien engineering projects as well as better estimates for what are future climate models hold as we transition into a greener energy that does not have the particular matter pollution, that coal, natural gas, these other types of technology put up into the atmosphere.
[00:29:13] So. A really interesting stuff that are side effects and . This is just goes to remind us that when we have something like this that affects so many people, it's not just the immediate obvious effects. You know, people are getting sick, people are dying, which is tragic, but these things spiral into all sorts of aspects of life.
[00:29:32] You know, like I mentioned, people are unable to work. People are unable to get very basic necessities either because they can't go out or they can't afford them. Food, toilet paper. All these things are affecting people's lives regardless of their personal individual status. The same thing in a larger environmental scale with this, a dramatic change in air pollution that's happening in China right now.
[00:29:52] Everything is connected in ways that we can't even imagine until it happens. And we started looking at the situation saying, Oh shit, this stuff is way more in depth than we ever imagined. And the global economy is going to find this out very soon, as are just in time manufacturing technology starts running up against the fact that China is shipping dramatically less products basis of sort of a global food chain of logistic production.
[00:30:18] So.
[00:30:19] Mmm Hmm.
[00:30:20] It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the coming weeks and months. Um, and the stock market I think is still in denial about this fact. And, uh, what is that, that proverb may you live in interesting times. Well, we absolutely are. And this show, I hope, reminds everyone to look at things from largest systemic perspective.
[00:30:39] You can, but also don't get lost in that things can feel impossible, impossibly large, impossible to overcome in that process. But as you pointed out, Daniel, the individual life of yourself and those around you are still very much, very much within your reach.
[00:30:56] Well, you're right about that, David, and I just want to say for anybody who experiences existential dread or feels bad about these larger systemic issues. We have an episode for you. It's episode number 77 called coping with collapse. And um, yeah, it's, it's important in the face of these large looming issues to remember how to maintain our sanity and how to move forward positively with those around us.
[00:31:28] So check that episode out if you're ever feeling down. Mmm. Okay. So chat show. I just got one thing I want to kind of rant on just to kind of. An idea that's been swirling in my head, David, that I've just kind of been thinking about. And that's how you know, I've been working for this nonprofit. I've got another job, and I've been super busy and I want to do a show at some point just on nonprofits and the kind of structure that they exist in because there's just so much that could be said.
[00:32:00] Um, in particular about the funding structure, and I'm finding out this so many local, like small nonprofits are put in the situation is very competitive landscape, where the only way that they can do the work that they need to do. Is by competing with one another. Other nonprofits who are all trying to do good, but they have to compete against one another for the same limited pool of funding, which pretty much comes out of, you know, one of two sources, either the government or private foundations, and when it comes to government funding, that's usually directed toward and restricted by whatever the main political issues of the day are with tons of strings attached.
[00:32:41] And then you get the private foundations, and we have a show on philanthropy and in all the contradictions in that. But yeah, you have private foundations, which are basically either rich individuals who just want to fund projects that satisfy whatever social ambition or vanity they have. Or you had these foundations that are ultimately funded by the corporations creating the problems the nonprofits are trying to solve.
[00:33:06] And then you get into the actual culture of all this work with, with all these looming systemic things that impact everything. It's just a very interesting environment. And I will say as someone who spent few years in the business world. I have never met people who work as hard as the people I've met who work in the nonprofit world and they're just not getting paid anywhere close to what you get paid in the business world.
[00:33:31] And I think that is itself a no, something to be said about the way our society operates. But I, I bring this up cause I just want to talk about business management for a second. Um, this is something I've been thinking about because in this work, I'm trying to be better employee. You know, I'm trying to.
[00:33:48] You know, add capacity for these organizations and figure out better ways of doing things. And so. I looked too. Business management tools and strategies for organizing projects, getting teams to work more effectively. Things like project management. You know, before you do something, you plan it out, you write down all the stabs, you identify the communication plan, the schedule, all the deliverables, right?
[00:34:15] Another tool I've looked at are things called process maps or logic models where you take something that people do and you. Codified into this process where every step is laid out. Mmm. Another model I've looked at is called add car, which is eight quote, goal oriented, change management model that guides individuals and organizational change.
[00:34:38] End quote. And all these tools are good in a way, they're effective. But I've realized, and we've talked about this, that ultimately what these business management tools. Do is they de emphasize the human being in any process. So this is kind of a roundabout points to just stick with me. So we talked about an episode 28 that end about the idea that debt, financial debt.
[00:35:05] Once existed only in the realm of human relationships, and this came before even the invention of currency, but it was through currency or the ability to apply some kind of standard value on things outside of the realm of social relationships that it suddenly became possible to extract debt from social relationships by, uh, you putting it in contracts that could then be traded and sold.
[00:35:32] Which enabled, by the way, you know, merchants and other strangers to basically economically enslave others thousands of miles away. I think in a similar way, the business management practices that get employed in the modern work environment de emphasize human relationships. So let me take this podcast, for example, David.
[00:35:54] We're kind of like a business, right? I mean, a two man operation. We've got little, little, uh.
[00:35:59] Little LLC.
[00:36:00] A little LLC. Yeah. You know, have some revenue. We definitely have cost. Mmm. But we started this thing because we know each other. We have similar values. We enjoy talking with one another. Right. At least for an hour.
[00:36:16] Once a week. Yeah. Mmm. And we work on this thing together because we want to create something that will benefit other people. But also because we enjoy doing it and because we don't want to let the other person down, right? I mean. And we have built up certain habits and procedures. You know, we typically record together like this.
[00:36:37] Then I'll do the initial edit. Then you master it. Mmm. I usually create the first draft website post. You finish it, and then you take the mastered audio and you publish it, and then. I'll coordinate people to help us with transcripts. You find artistic talent for shows and artwork. And then that's not to mention the community of people around us who are helping us, who are engaging in conversation on our discord to help us with transcripts who provide research for us.
[00:37:08] And you and I, David, we do all of this because we care about it and we care about each other. But none of the tasks that we do are written down right. Oh, but what if we did write it down? What if we took all our processes and we said, okay, to edit the show, do steps a through Z and to master the audio and apply the affects that make our voices sound so smooth.
[00:37:33] And radio quality do steps one through eight. Well, now all of a sudden we have all these written processes and we could hire someone for each of these things, right? We could hire an editor and then, you know, just give them the process. And every time we record, they just do that. They do steps a through Z, and if they don't do a good job, fire them and we could replace them with someone else, it wouldn't matter, right?
[00:38:01] Because we have the process. Um, then we could hire somebody else for some other process.
[00:38:05] All right. Let's see. So you're saying like, uh, quantifying the human experience of doing work so that it can be easily packaged. And then, uh, sold to whoever's most capable for the lowest amount of money.
[00:38:18] And before you know it, we'd have a little empire going. And, uh, you know, that would be great for the operational efficiency and the growth of this podcast, but it, it might have an inverse impact on social relationship, right? That is that as you. Codify these things and packaged them up into, uh, transferrable processes that take out the human relationship part of it.
[00:38:41] Then the need for social relationship and social ties goes down a little bit. I don't want to be too dramatic. I don't think that if we did that, it would actually, on our small scale on this podcast scale result in some dehumanizing thing, I think we would just be expanding the team and that it would, you know.
[00:39:00] Everyone would get along because who would do this with us if they didn't share our values? And you know, as long as the team is small, we could probably maintain a pretty good community going on. Right. And on the flip side of this, if we did write all this down, and we've talked about this, we could actually package it up into a little how to guide for starting and running a podcast, then we could disseminate that knowledge among people.
[00:39:25] And instead of just building our little ashes, ashes, empire. Maybe we could help support some kind of de-centralized podcast community or network of independent podcasters. So I think there's a
[00:39:38] Side note. If this sounds cool to you, email us a contact at ashes. ashes.org.
[00:39:44] Yes, sir. So there is a flip side to, to what I'm saying, which is that business management tools are tools that primarily, let's say, you know, 95% of the time benefit capitalist expansion. And help managers turn human beings into little warehouse drones and worker bee armies. Right? But those same tools could be used for subversion.
[00:40:10] It could be used by communities to better organize themselves, right. And so, uh, I dunno, I've just been thinking about this because I think it's kind of a paradox that we live in a world where if you want to survive, you kind of have to, you have to be a better worker. Being a better worker often means sacrificing a little bit on the human relationship side.
[00:40:32] I mean, not that you don't have to build relationships to get ahead and work. Actually, it's usually the opposite because if your boss doesn't like you, you don't get promoted. But in terms of your individual authenticity and your. Genuine personality and spirit and values. I think these things have to be sacrificed so often for us to fit the mold of these processes and business management styles and project management requirements, and just so that we can maintain and grow in some kind of career so that we can take care of ourselves.
[00:41:07] Yeah.
[00:41:07] And that means I feel like so many of us are just. Constantly walking a tight rope, balancing our authentic selves with the self that we must be to survive. And this wouldn't be ashes, ashes if we didn't take things to the extreme. So I will go on and say that this is not just in abstract concepts. So when Christopher Columbus came to America, David
[00:41:28] Oh, we're going way back.
[00:41:30] Yeah, we're going, yeah. So he encountered native people who were so genuine and so honest in their interactions with him. The, he responded by immediately enslaving and slaughtering them, and he infamously wrote from the West Indies and a report back to the Spanish crown quote. The people are artless, well, he says they, so they are artless and generous with what they have to such a degree as no one would believe him, but who had seen it.
[00:42:01] Of anything they have. If it be asked for, they never say no, but do rather invite the person to accept it and show as much lovingness as though they would give their hearts and they know no secret nor idolatry. Save that. They all believe that power and goodness are in the sky. And this comes not because they are ignorant.
[00:42:23] On the contrary, they are men, a very subtle wit to navigate all those seas and who give him marvelous, good account of everything. And as soon as I arrived in the Indies and the first Island that I found, I took them by force and their Spanish Highness may see that I shall give them the Spanish crown as much gold as they may need and slaves as many as they show order to be shipped.
[00:42:47] End quote. So this, this was the European introduction upon the Americans and what set the stage for civilization on this continent.
[00:42:56] A Western civilization of the Scot.
[00:42:58] Thank you for that correction. Yes. Of Western civilization on this content of which. You and I are the, I guess, lineages of, right. So when Christopher Columbus first came, he encountered people that were so genuine and honest who couldn't tell a lie.
[00:43:13] And his response was to immediately enslaved those people. And so that people who remained authentic and generous with what they had, well, their land was stolen and they were worked to death in minds. Whereas in contrast, there were many native people who did survive by learning to kill for the European colonizer.
[00:43:32] They adapted themselves to this forest. No, I am driving to a point here, David, so don't lose me just yet.
[00:43:40] Okay.
[00:43:41] So in his book, Columbus and other cannibals, which Jack Forbes, one of the founders of the native American movement, right. And this book is from 1992 a Jack writes, quote. Sophistication is a nice word, isn't it?
[00:43:56] It means lacking natural simplicity or Niveah Tay and is derived from the word Sophos one who is skillful in devious argumentation. Isn't it revealing that one of the favorite words of the European elites used to describe themselves points openly towards deviousness and falsity to lose one's natural simplicity.
[00:44:19] Sadly. And the wetico world means to become a person who hides his true feelings behind a mask, which deceives . I just think the way that we work, the way that we value our labor and respond to change and carry out capital accumulation is just one example of the systemic influences on our need to be safe.
[00:44:42] Vista and wear masks in this world. I just think we really take for granted how much in the society we are conditioned or you know, I'll speak for myself, how much I am conditioned to value adapting myself to each situation to achieve best outcomes as opposed to valuing true authenticity and pure values regardless of the outcome.
[00:45:04] And to bring it back to business management. I think our overall work culture contributes to this because when it comes to top down hierarchies and almost all businesses are. Decisions are made, and then it becomes everyone's job to either adapt to that change or two, actively manipulate others into accepting that change.
[00:45:23] And anyone who cannot do that disappears because they're no longer valued. Because ultimately these systems that dominate our lives are founded on the original intent of colonizing this world of, of colonizing people and enslaving them. And it's what Jack Forbes calls in his book. The wet T codes disease.
[00:45:43] So I just want to read one more time from Jack's book. Oh, a book, by the way, which was recommended to us by listener. A shout out to miss Misa, but Jack writes in his book about what he calls the wet Tico disease, and it's a really powerful concept. I think everyone should read this book anyway.
[00:46:03] Machiavellianism probably originated in the middle East some 3000 to 5,000 years ago when the first documented systems of oppression and exploitation appeared in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. Now, however, I believe that the term Machiavellian does not adequately describe the nature of what we are dealing with.
[00:46:25] Thus, I now wish to explain the wet Tico concept. Mexico is a Cree term, which refers to a cannibal or more specifically to an evil person or spirit who terrorizes other creatures by means of terrible evil acts, including cannibalism. I've come to the conclusion that imperialism and exploitation are forms of cannibalism and in fact are precisely those forms of cannibalism, which are most diabolical or evil.
[00:46:56] Traditional, ritualistic, so-called cannibalism found among many folk peoples was essentially an act of eating a small portion of a dead enemy's flesh in order to gain part of the strength or power of that person or to show respect in a spiritual way. Cannibalism, as I define it, is the consuming of another's life for one's own private purpose or profit.
[00:47:21] Thus, the slaver who forces blacks or Indians to lose their lives in the slave trade, or who drains away their lives in a slave system is a cannibal. He may eat other people immediately as in the deaths of tens of millions of blacks in the process of enslavement or shipment, or he may eat their flesh gradually over a period of years.
[00:47:43] Thus. The wealthy exploiter eats the flash of oppressed workers. The wealthy matron eats the lies of her servants. The imperialist eats the flesh of the conquered and so on. Nazi-ism, for example, may be described as a German form of cannibalism designed to consume Jews, gypsies, poles, and other Slavs in order to fatten Germans.
[00:48:06] Anglo American imperialism is a form of cannibalism designed to eat Indians and also to consume the native people's land and resources. A process which continues in central America and elsewhere. Today. It should be understood that wet Chicos do not eat other humans only in a symbolic sense, the deaths of tens of millions of Jews, Slavs, et cetera.
[00:48:27] At the hands of the Nazis, the deaths of tens of millions of blacks through slavery, the deaths of up to 30 million or more Indians in the 15 hundreds the terribly short lifespan of Mexican Indian farm workers in the U S and of native Americans generally today. The high death rates in the early industrial centers among factory workers and so on.
[00:48:49] All clearly attest to the fact that the wealthy and exploitative literally consumed the lives of those that they exploit, that I would affirm is truly and literally cannibalism. And it is cannibalism accompanied by no spiritually meaningful ceremony or ritual. It is simply raw consumption for profit carried out often in an ugly and brutal manner.
[00:49:13] There is no respect for a pian whose life is being eaten. No ceremony. No. Mr. Cole communication only self-serving consumption
[00:49:25] It's pretty good.
[00:49:27] yeah. And so I guess what I'm trying to say here, David, uh, you know, business management, nonprofits, Etsuko cannibalism. Uh, this is why we have to transform the world and tear down the current systems of economic and political power.
[00:49:42] Uh, I like, I like your simple summary for that. Well, what a, what a beautiful, powerful description, but, but you're right. wasn't, takes many different, uh, forms today and things that. We might not recognize as such, but really is absolutely consuming life. It's the lice of all of all of us, and we might not historically called like cannibalism, but it absolutely is and I think that's a really good perspective to keep in mind.
[00:50:08] There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and. Our lives are cannibalism.
[00:50:14] There is no ethical consumption under capitalism because everything is cannibalism.
[00:50:19] Yes. Thank you. All right. Well after that, in coherent street, my friend.
[00:50:26]
[00:50:26] Mmm. Shall we end the show?
[00:50:28] Yeah, I think that that's already a lot to think about and I'm sure many of you still have some listing left to do. Uh, we will be back at it with deep dives next week, that ocean report. You'll definitely want to tune in for that because this is the big thing, uh, with our future. So, uh, next week we'll be back with that, but if you want any of the details about what we talked about this week.
[00:50:48] Uh, that link, a link to the book. Daniel was this quoting from a link to that article about border patrol. You can find all of that as well as a full transcript of this episode, as well as every episode on our website at ashes, ashes dot O R. G. also, be sure to check out our borders. Sub site at borders dot ashes, ashes.org.
[00:51:10] As always, a lot of time and research goes into making the . These episodes possible and we will never use ads to support this show. This is listener supported all the way through, so if you like it and would like us to keep going, you our listener can support us by giving us a review, recommending us to a friend.
[00:51:28] I'm having these conversations with your family members and associates so that we get more conversation going, or you can send us financial love, patrion.com/ashes ashes cast, and we've got some stickers we'll send out to you every couple months and get in contact with us, our email address, his contact at ashes, ashes.org and we appreciate all the thoughts and feedback you send us.
[00:51:56] But you don't have to stop it. Just sending us an email. As we've mentioned, we have a phone number. We love hearing your voicemails calls and other thoughts. That number's three one three, nine, nine ashes. That's. Three, one, three, nine, nine, two, seven, four, three, seven. And we are also on every single one of your favorite social media websites.
[00:52:18] ashes, ashes, cast. There's great communities, great memes, great news stories. Check them all out. Twitter, Instagram, Reddit. Uh, I might play with a tick tock if that is your thing. I'm still figuring out exactly how we might use that, but it's all happening. Check 'em out. Uh, or if you'd like to just interact with us directly, we encourage you all to come and join our discord community.
[00:52:40] It is a fantastic group of people that we are constantly learning from. Like Daniel mentioned, uh, this book in the last section here was recommended to us from. A users in this community, so please come and join the conversation. There's a lot of important things being said and discussed. There's a link to that discord in our website.
[00:52:58] Go to ashes, ashes.org click community and you'll find the discord invite link there.
[00:53:04] Shout out to David Tarceva, who without your technical genius, nothing would exist.
[00:53:10] And Daniel, this would not exist at all without all of your hard work. I feel like I'm just trying to catch up with you, but enough back padding. Oh, this is wrapping up our show.
[00:53:19] Well, actually, David, you know, I just think
[00:53:21] Yes. Then we just, this is why we talk all week cause we just like got each other's back though. No. Uh, we will be back next week with another great episode and we hope you'll tune in for that.
[00:53:31] There's a lot of important things to discuss next week and into the near future. So, uh, stay in contact and keep listening and try and make a positive impact in your immediate world. But until then, this is ashes. Ashes.
[00:53:45] Also thanks to our associate producer John Fitzgerald. Thank you so much. Bye.
[00:53:49] Bye, bye.