Another week, another collapse chat! This week we explore bullshit jobs through a listener email, dive into the upcoming Earth Strike event through interviews with activists and organizers, and take a look at the playbook of the forces who want to stop activism at all stages. There's a lot to learn as we jump through all these different topics so settle in and enjoy the ride!
Our most sincere apologies for the sound quality in some of these interviews, sometimes you just have to roll with what you're given.
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(This transcript is automated and not so great. We'll fix it as soon as we can!)
[0:06] I'm David Torcivia.
[0:08] I'm Daniel forkner.
[0:10] And this is Ashes Ashes, a show about systemic issues, cracks in civilization, collapse of the environment, and if we're unlucky the end of the world.
[0:20] But if we learn from all of this, maybe we can stop that. The world might be broken, but it doesn't have to be.
[0:32] Another chat show, David.
[0:34] Yep and then we got a lot to talk about once again this weekend. What a favorite things, and I personally get out of this show Daniel is when listeners right us and tell us stories whether it's something that happened to them and their actual life or thoughts they had questions, and we got a lot of these emails recently but one in particular I think I wanted to take a moment to share. So let me share a little of this email from you. It was written to us by a listener named Lawrence, I'm going to give you all his backstory and his personal information in here but he did write us with a couple comments with one of them that stood out to me was that his experience of his own, bulshit job and that he was just recently listening to our episode on bulshit jobs number 63 busy work and a he realize weight. It sounds really familiar and I have my own personal experiences in this field, so let me please share this with y'all so that you can share it with everyone else is listening and know that they aren't alone out there with their own bullshit experiences something unfortunately a lot of us have to deal with, so I want to just read some excerpts from this is this isn't the entire story but the good bits so if you'll bear with me for so I can hear Daniel.
[1:51] I just the infamous and now ubiquitous bullshit job story David these are always fun because, wheel of pain right wheel of knowing that we're not alone in our pain and so many of us do have to work bullshit jobs, I think maybe you and me are a little bit of the lucky ones you know here on the microphone.
[2:12] A definitely lucky Daniel without a doubt.
[2:15] But it's always interesting to hear the stories because they're also so diverse you know I think everybody can relate to the idea of doing pointless work, are there infinite variations of what bullshit jobs really look like and I think Lawrence is stories is pretty interesting.
[2:31] Yes I'm so let me go ahead and share some of the story and I'm not going to read all this verbatim I will towards the middle but I want to just sort of summarize his situation begin with so Lawrence, was something called an activities coordinator, in a small office called the Community Partnerships office that was part of a university of K up in in Canada. Lawrence Road us and told us that he was making about 40,000 Canadian a year and that was put in charge of a fund of almost a hundred fifty thousand Canadian every year.
[3:03] Is it Canadian dollars.
[3:04] Canadian dollars yet not Canadian people Canadian dollars, and and so this this fund was supposed to connect local high school students and encourage those students to come to this college, that he worked at right so he's basically a college recruiter musing this money to try and do it an interesting ways that Peak systems interest in and gives them value, to come to whatever College he worked at so I mean right off the bat your bullshit jobs alarm Bells might start ringing a little but.
[3:38] What will his bulshit alarms were going off David when he realized that his work was actually duplicating the work of others at the college he writes. Problem was there already existed a robust recruitment arm of the college, engraver talks about the bullshittery of their jobs to so my role was duplicating their work as several high schools told me.
[4:00] Duplication is one of those key elements of what creates a bullshit job in it and existence is sort of, system that has to constantly make itself justified in the eyes of whoever is controlling these budgets and he's not some money and that's one of the problems that, Lawrence run into work he had this budget $150,000 a year and he had to make sure that he spent all of it, in order to guarantee the health department will get the money again next year and if they didn't spend all of it then it be swole that you obviously don't need this much money let's producing that you get to one of those classic problems we have to spend the budget even if you don't need it all in order to keep the next budget coming in.
[4:36] What was he spending this money on.
[4:37] Well that's a good question so, he had to do all sorts of things iot again what the city so he's responsible for inviting high school students to the college to tours and workshops and generally here I should be allocated like 10 to $15 for one high school student per visit, and I mean no matter how fancy the food they're giving at the colleges and how much swag they gave away they actually already ran into trouble, getting all this money to the students if you can clean the money directly but you know and then turn to the swag of things that they would receive, and that has a problem so how do we spend all this extra money so we don't get our budget cut down so, to expand Beyond this they started trying to look for specific programs at the Outreach to the high school students in order to increase the budget that's happening here and a guarantee that the fun is going to continue to come in and so he wrote us about one of these specific, examples and I'm just going to read this verbatim because it is really interesting so ready.
[5:34] One specific project was allocated about $20,000 and involves bringing high school students to do a design exploration of something that would help their school. It happen to be school that have experienced multiple stabbings and was generally in need of positive things. Is class of 2018 twice has been full day's brainstorming until they designed a mobile drink cart for their football team. So I have to go back to school with a check to buy materials and I put it out of mind for a few months while they built away and I focus on other things more on that later. After while I'm being unable to get in touch with the main teacher I just went to the school myself and tracked him down to my utter shock walking to the class I found not, I'm mobile drink stand for the benefit of the entire school but in actual fucking go-kart decided that the drinks were boring, granted and decided that this was more fun. I agree but my role is to write a goddamn report to the Ministry of Education and fuck knows how I spend this one I spoke to my boss and she basically said. Spin it so it looks good. At the end of the funding cycle I stressed over their boards and budget for a week and finally had a story were there of Alexandre Dumas however when it came to submit. Using the online Ministry portal it was only space to input budget.
[6:54] No written reports at all I asked my boss for then investigated listen to the written reports or to be internally assessed. I said boss and only flag up if there were normally. So as long as I spent all the money and my boss who is job by the way was also of the BS Friday agreed it was well spent. Then we're on track to receive another $150,000 maybe more the following year. I had 15 project in total some as easy as little research initiatives others at go-kart experience but all of which took about 15 to 20 hours per week. The rest of the time I twiddle my thumbs took ridiculously long lunches or just plain left. I knew to always carry a notebook or clip or with me on my time wasting Adventures as if I was on the way to or from a meeting and was never questioned by my boss the remaining time at the job I actually poured into an army to activist, I was involved with the time with the Zeitgeist Movement and plant Toronto's eBay right from the college after 18 months is bull sorry I could no longer take it there been mad by the idea that I was 24 and being paid to do buccal swab so full of energy and potential, sold everything got rid of my apartment and went organic farming around Ontario it's active and Hoover, and fell in love and then he moved on and then now his life is a very dramatically different and it wasn't this time.
[8:15] I want I want to talk about this just for a second here Daniel and it lets the end of his story that he goes on little bit more explain what he's up to at the moment I want to give too much information away. But suffice to say a lot of people look at this sort of job when you're fresh out of college. A new place as awesome you can do 15 to 20 hours, of work a week you could do do whatever you want with the rest of time and you're making your own k money. But it drives people crazy and it's one of these unifying things about these bulshit jobs as a lot times they've pretty easy but it drives people insane. Until they can't take anymore they have to leave and move on or they just get beaten down and in turn it to a burnt-out husk of who they were before and luckily Lawrence's case he was able to channel this extra time into something productive something he cared about that pave the way, to the experiences and an interest that he would follow in life that found him love and found his current career after he left Canada and move to Europe where he works, trying to help the environment so congratulations to you Lawrence I think your story inspiration it and something that a lot of our listeners write us a very similar, Cindy was special this week we got a lot of emails from people saying I was doing something I thought it was bullshit I tried another thing and also felt like bullshittin I just quit everything moved across country became a farmer or joined an NGO or became, or some sort of activists and I guess it's also something that you're in the midst of right now then.
[9:39] Yeah that's right I'm here in Massachusetts about to start my new orientation for a working with a non-profit the again that's going to be working on. Designing and implementing a food distribution model you know what's interesting David I was visiting a gym in the local area here and I signed up, and as I was signing out the owner of the gym you know it's asking me about what I was doing until I told him you know I was involved with this nonprofit going to be doing this work that you're being food to a much-needed community that lives in a food desert. And you said something interesting he pause like you didn't know what to say and then he said well that's cool you know you're giving back to the community.
[10:22] And something about that didn't sit right with me the words giving back to the community. It takes me back to that episode we did episode 61 owning change. About philanthropy and how the idea of giving back to your community kind of comes from this Narrative of individual success. We as individuals it's our job to go out to the world make as much money as possible become successful grow on that works build a business, and then once we have amassed this success in this wealth that you don't give back to the community that you came from give back to those that kind of help you along your way you know and then your kind of scene is this philanthrocapitalism who, is using their wealth for good. And I mean I know this guy wasn't like trying to say anything negative he was just trying to be supportive but didn't really know what else to say and.
[11:14] Nothing rupt you quickly but I think that not knowing what else to say thing is important there because people are so disconnected from the community's any idea. I love what a community is and how you exist in one that that's the kind of programmatic automatic response people have because it's the only way they know how to relate, is it something that they've been told to say just like you know when someone dies say I'm so sorry for your loss. Are you giving back to the community is just an automatic response because that's that's the only way people know how to interact with these things cuz he don't have any personal experience in that situation where they can say something valuable or interesting.
[11:48] Yeah but a larger issue that it kind of brought to my attention is just the way our society conceptualizes work the benefit other people. Because the work I see myself doing your building food distribution models encouraging people to adopt sustainable farming gardening these type of things I don't see that is. Giving back to the community I see it as a very necessary step towards a world that that's not going to fall apart. It's kind of like if you lived in a building that was supported by a couple columns right. And every 10 years you had to replace those Colin or else the building would collapse. You wouldn't refer to the the people who did that construction workers oh they're giving back to the community now you said this is a necessary job, but if we don't do this job our whole world is going to collapse in and that's how I see this work is it's not, a charity it's hey if we don't do this if we don't get on this path we don't Implement systems that are going to be resilient in the face of climate change. We're not going to make it right this is necessary work and then we need as many people on board with these ideas as possible.
[13:05] Yeah without a down in and there's a lot of people who are driven by that sort of idea that it's not about serving Community but it's about, being part of the community putting that can be first and the work you do and it is just something that is expected necessary and vital to the continuance of. Not only the community which is apparently the hot word of this episode but also the larger environment our culture whatever. Beyond that intense so maybe maybe this is a good transition to we talked to some a activist who also feel driven by. Drive to buy. Can be driven by Drive Daniel is there better way to say that.
[13:45] You can be a backseat driver of the motivation to to do good things.
[13:52] Backseat driver motive. People who just feel it necessary to be part of this system pushing things forward in the only way they know how and especially whenever possible making sure I guess here your backseat driver is. Well maybe it's not a taxi drivers a bad thing right with somebody telling the person the front what to do even though they're dry. Is activist are making sure that yes they're driving things forward but when necessary they take a step back and let the people who really are the leaders of these communities local communities, take the step forward making sure they're just giving them the tools and the organization and the drive to continue pushing but understanding that the local population already has a lot of ties with each other, and you need to respect those anytime you are doing organizing or volunteering or anything like that which, it's something for you to keep in mind to Daniel's you come into all sorts of communities that have existed for ages at this point.
[14:46] Yeah well this is one of the reasons why I'm so excited about the work I'm doing building on a food Hub is essentially what what this job is. And the first year of what we're going to be doing is just really meeting with the community forming groups, of community members to help guide and steer Us in the right direction, and that's in contrast to other approaches some people have which is like hey let me think up as a solution that no one's asked for and then go into a community and impose it, write this is the exact opposite approach to that which is something I'm fully on board with and you're absolutely right that that's the, appropriate approach when helping other people and helping communities first find out what the need is and figure out how you can help them, achieve their goals and how you can connect those efforts to the struggles of other people wherever they are. So you write we talked to a couple activists who are involved with Earth strike and Earth strike is just one of many International efforts to combat climate change and build solidarity across several communities around the world. And they have some International demands which will read but it was really interesting to me as earthstrike actually came out of a desperate, that someone made online.
[16:01] It was actually an not a comment but just a post in the chompski subreddit of all places. On read it and I remember seeing it at the time and it got thousands of apples. And it was just somebody basically so traumatized by all the things that are happening in this world given to the end of their wits and Will it's time to do something and they just they just happen to set a date everyone is like okay.
[16:28] Let me read that right now the title of this post is general strike to save the planet. I don't fucking know how to do this I'm one of these distant types that never reacts to anything I'm scared out of my mind. The planet has what may be two years before it's game over I heard we have 10 years a while ago but it seems like every week we see a new headline saying it's worse than we thought and faster than we expected, until 6 days ago I didn't vote, I saw a rigged system that was bought and paid for and thought electoral politics was an insult to one's intelligence, others have different opinions on the importance of voting for one thing can be very clear voting in our system will never be enough. We the Royal Collective we need to disrupt the system and there will never be a convenient time the number of days we have left is dwindling. Working date is January 15th. I originally thought the first person Pollock reasons but a large portion of workers are off anyway that day we need disruption civil disobedience. It has to start somewhere likely it won't be with this I just want to get a ball and he bought some god-forsaken shot in the dark I don't want to die ball rolling.
[17:47] And that post was made in November 10th of last year 2018, and I remember seeing at the time it popped up and I gave it up over there were lots of comments in there, and you notice that original date their January 15th 2019 well that's that's come and gone and there were a lot of experienced organizers who did pop up in these comments and say this is awesome this is great, but when there's no way we can organize digital strike in 3 months 2 months really so let's take this energy and let's keep pushing it forward, and it was it was incredible watching come together over the next week almost immediately there were a website to put up, Discord Community has grown all sorts of people from around the world with media design capabilities with advertising knowledge all came together very organically very quickly set up chapters around the world end.
[18:40] This thing kicked off and there's something here that I want to point out is that you know a lot of times when were talking to him and Gloom in terms of the climate especially right now as the rainforest Burns I've seen a lot of people casually talk about this, online a lot of people in real life people normally don't talk about this sort of climate stuff wind is. There's a criticism of the larger status quo community that says alarm isn't doesn't work. That when you tell people that things are really in Dire Straits that they give up a butt. This is post right here and the actions I've seen people take in the recent days seem to me to tell exactly the opposite story. It's almost like people who are trying to defend the status quo or just doing that trying to defend business as usual I mean this is somebody who says they have no hope they're scared out of their mind.
[19:32] Instead of just giving up they made this supposed to happen to kick-off what is coming up to be hopefully probably one of the largest climate-related events in history, I with people all around the world organizing for single day after a week of events leading up to this of climate resistance and I would have happened if this person wasn't alarmed, and terrified to the point that they felt that it became a matter of life and death to do some. This is exactly the opposite with the median the status quo try and tell us his do or what would people caution organizations like the ipcc. To do which is it you know what alarm is MM does work a lot of times because if people aren't scared they don't realize the stakes then why would they make these sacrifices or take these risks in order to make a.
[20:19] Right and that day that you're referring to is scheduled for September 27th in some countries that may be September 20th. And there are three international demands coming from from this International movement and I'll read those right now. An immediate start on global cooperation to reverse the Damage Done to the earth's climate through an ambiguous and binding agreement by both world leaders and corporate entities, following ipcc projections of cutting carbon emissions in half by 2030 and zero net emissions by 20/52. International onion bagels and binding commitments to Halt the destruction of rainforests and other wildlife habitat. Finally International unambiguous and binding agreements designed to hold corporations accountable for the greenhouse gases they produce. Of course that's just the international demand every single country every single region will have their own set of Demands on Earth strike day and leading up to it. And so we heard from two organizers one here in the United States in New York City and one in the UK. Each offering their own unique perspective on the work that needs to be done and how we can all be involved.
[21:36] Let's go to listen to Jacob from New York City with Earth strike NYC.
[21:42] Hello.
[21:48] So we're here with Jacob and activist and organizer with Earth strike New York City Jacob. Yeah so how'd you get involved with Earth strike and what's going on in New York.
[21:58] Well I got involved with our strike back in March but I believe local like I reach out to an ecological organizing the city and they put me in touch with Earth Day, and I've been like it pretty hard everything and what's happening in your day is December 27th we're planning a community strike for climate over colonialism, so you are aware the UN climate Summit a week of actions by Logic group happening during that week while you out of here is the life is that of that week, and I think about this that is really rooted in, what line radical work that all your t's in New York are doing so obviously our site is not in Midtown, I'll check it in Sunset Park Brooklyn because we're Puerto Rican organized and Asian-American organisers and low-income organizers have been working, are the intersections of, Destruction, and Justice gentrification and capitalism basically.
[23:17] We see a strike our like Rowdy and and March, missing. Community like the epicenter of the broader Piper, liberation.
[23:29] What is the strike going to look like.
[23:32] It's going to be a valley of all these different Securities coming together we're encouraging people to take a full day off of work but as I said like because we're being very rooted in, marginalized communities really a lot of food has a lot of room have their district attorney and I do as a wife, Batman and striping we're starting our main rally at 3, which means that if people can only take a half a day off of work because it's kind of our first big action or power for a showing up, The Robin's Nest on at 3 and Sunset Park in Brooklyn, a lot of different kinds of I don't like a speaker like things like 2 Chainz and our performance performances name, starting around 5 and then probably going to be and not really is not.
[24:33] What are you hoping to get out of this strike.
[24:35] Yeah we're hoping to show the world that you can give you the already powerful and then that Business Solutions are already here, I think that's kind of a phrase back by scientist to say a lot that we have it but I think we're trying to show that we have the political solution, Renovations by cup Rose Wichita main partner who like I said has been doing this work in the working-class community the color is pewter the color for decades they've already been doing the work, and people like the Puerto Rican organizer to organize the big Ricky renew Jackson I thought I already actions with Puerto Rico a few weeks ago that basically got the governor of Puerto Rico to step down there already doing the work and they already have the solution, it will be the length power to them at 8, what people really think of as a general strike witches where everybody Intercity goes on strike at once you cut down his brother 15 colonialism and capitalism.
[25:32] Yeah no doubt and I wear hearing from an earth strike organizer from the UK now is there like a National earthstrike Organization that you're part of our or how do you fit into the. You know I guess Global movement to combat climate change and and raise awareness for how our economic system plays into that.
[25:52] Totally, I would rather strike New York City New York state tournament member of the international Star Trek collector that's kind of like the organizational answer I guess, but then and trim that I think your broader question of how did it fit in it too, kind of like these interlocking system although I think that's something that we spent a lot of time thinking about you and your titties are really, are unique and Powerful Place matters because we have people here from all kind of guy for a few days I heard Dental tomorrow in New York, tore my partners are pretty huge action against again, what about the knowledge be doing to destroy the Amazon like I've already met you in there. And if they are all talking to each other about how colonialism.
[26:58] Yeah so how does someone get involved in this if they're not in New York City.
[27:02] That's awesome question answer right now if you like it on Facebook New York City, they can also benefit you male at Birth drag and wifey at protonmail.com run like a door strike NYC, Walter on venmo if you want to get involved that way at her second wifey, I'm ever even seen a really awesome response from people not in New York from people who are seeing what we're doing or seeing the radical demands that we have and I'd like to dislike Lift-Off in the second, resonating with that was rather going to get them is that we're doing work that is radical is led by and accountable through front and is returning to work at those. It's not that some of that apply. Like I said I just called them underneath that the demand of you have our and climate imperialism eject ecofascism prison abolition and gentrification the ownership intergenerational leadership, animal Liberation and kind of reparation and each one of those Panthers a distinct Frontline Community, I just wanted about how do you spell impact.
[28:24] Jacob you talked about uplifting these communities who are already doing the work and supporting communities who are or marginalizing and fighting back and, giving them the support they need what about yourself how did you get involved in this and what kind of let the fire under your feet.
[28:41] Yeah what's up bro. That's really interesting question for the cure dry part of the Jewish Community New York I think has the most Jewish people anything in the world, a lot of the work that I had done before coming to Earth Day, for you was Auntie Israeli occupation work within the Jewish community, and at some point it occur to you that likes while that work is great and I still definitely very much supported what really done with the fire under my feet was I wanted to, do you work that directly out of the fight before through that were threatened to destroy my own community so for that reason. Jewish and Dish Network and you're sitting around the world so I live in was actually I think the first group to officially endorse a check, maybe don't think of life I do go to Auntie's house is Jewish people as an environmental organization but I think it's really cool that we are bringing in these groups that maybe. Think about themselves as green group environmental groups because we link the forgettable what is fascism, you're one of the organizations in New York shortly.
[30:02] Yeah regular fascism and for example you had to Christchurch New Zealand from March calling himself in to go faster in El Paso.
[30:25] Hispanic done all non-white people to die though as a Jewish person we certainly aware of the ways in which, fascism you know how to do anything that has served to exterminate risky for IC environmental manifestations of fascism what if I like those crazy Gun Man or buy it by Trump in the US, as a team that directly threaten the work that I do that I do as a radical environmentalists like being kind of the same thing.
[30:59] What are the organizations are you partnering with in ended are supporting you.
[31:03] Yeah do I pay the the most important one that I said is upper as they're like our host because they've been doing the work at something Park that you.
[31:17] New York City, 500 which is an organization that came about in the wake of trump election that's been a lot of work with this day trumpism has endorsed. Oh I'm going to forget about trying to, Bronx private doctors north of yours. We are just a couple days ago I think from Union at the American Federation of teachers local branch in New York City which is awesome, Edison to life formula Bruce drive down to the voting process to enjoy it. We're working with around basically all about it man including you. Like a Brazilian After You Tasha Puerto Rican Independence Riders organized the governor of Puerto Rico set down and a lot of other groups right now.
[32:15] Well that's pretty good when you have so many supporters that you can't remember them all at the top of your head right.
[32:20] Yeah and something that we're really.
[32:27] Not to like go out and try to get the organization of the largest ruby can possibly find you got to be like we're not reaching out to XYZ big green nonprofit and think I enjoy it though we're like sending it to be all about time, going to local, organization and chapter is a large organization that are led by Frontline Community that will take a stand against the law, Empire framing out sounds very quickly at the anti-colonialism it's a way for us to the workplace which is what were you doing.
[33:23] That's great well I mean this work is so important and it's I mean we just reviewed the latest ipcc report last week and you know there's some problem I mean there's conflict of interest when you have a big funded International Organization you know if there's limits to what they can endure is politically and economically in. Right we need we need people in coalitions across this world working grass roots on the ground making things happen so, thank you so much for the work you're doing in September 27th right.
[33:53] September 27th 3 Sunset Park.
[33:55] Thanks so much Jacob.
[33:56] Thank you.
[33:59] I just want to re-emphasise something Jacob said which was you know how important it is to empower communities who are already doing important work and he said something like, you know scientist will tell us we have Solutions or we know what the solutions are but these communities are the ones living it out they have the political Solutions and it reminds me of something we talked about last week, reviewing the latest ipcc report which is it's very clear that the ipcc this International un body, fails to present any real political route towards achieving the very standards that they lay out as necessary if we're going to actually survive on this planet, and we talked about reasons why that is maybe the ipcc has its hands tied by the political and economic forces that ultimately control them, but it's a reminder that we shouldn't feel hopeless that the ipcc doesn't give us Clear Directions of how to combat corporations it doesn't give us political Solutions because there is no political will for the things they recommend I don't know what are we going to do it but Jacob is here saying look we have the Solutions in these communities are showing us the path forward you know yes we can let the ipcc inform is scientifically, but when it comes to actually creating change. Those radicals who have to respond to the things destroy their communities that's where we're going to find the solutions and that's who we need to support.
[35:20] Yeah I think it's just such an important point to pull a weight I'd only just for this interview but from the larger show in the conversations we have on here across. Everything pretty much and that is no climate change, is a solved problem we know how to fix this like that we spend a lot of time riding dick reports about how bad is it going to be in a what's going to go on what can we report it exist, because people are trying to find the best way to solve things without changing the Status Quo it all but like if we're talking about solutions to climate change you know it's very simple, less carbon in the atmosphere and the promises that are are energy, me so closely linked to the carbon, that the solution is untenable almost everybody but like we know how to do this we have lots of different solutions whether it it ranges from the growth weather ranges from eliminating carbon fuel sources are more sustainable local farming or land use practices you know all sorts of things and it's just a matter of where's the political will for these things and that is the big gap in the ipcc reports we don't we know the situation we know how bad it's going to be we know the solutions but where are the political Solutions and that's what doesn't exist and it's supposed to be constructing things like the Paris agreement other things like that. Nobody follows through with those are non-binding and it's against everybody's best interest politically economically the people who are creating and signing these treaties to actually follow through with any of it.
[36:45] You know but at the same time the communities that are most impacted by this these local communities like Jacobs talking about they have the political Solutions because they have to, in order for them to exist basically in order to survive in the face of this climate crisis and that isn't necessarily been coming but it's already here for many of them, it's a matter of life or death and it's very simple at that stage because it is, a matter of having that political will to push these things for their not economically invested in order to defend the status quo like the people who are ultimately you know humming and hawing with what do we do what's going to happen, this is not a hopeless solution list scenario climate crisis is solved it just the lack of how do we solve the political question that the people who are in power who hold of the levers over us.
[37:33] Don't want to be part of the solution and that's why people like Jacob other Grassroots activists for trying to empower these communities, who are the ultimate stakeholders in this larger system like economically maybe that's not true that they're they're the ones who will the power but in terms of what is what is any power in the end would but people willing to do something, this is where we have to enable these people who are willing to do something in their own best interest that isn't about exploiting or continuing our economic system that is dependent upon the exploitative nature of everything and making sure that everything is unsustainable in order to concentrate well for smaller and smaller group of people with look at people who are actually, the people and are willing to make sacrifices in order to fight to basically ensure their survival and any. Organization any sort of movement in order to be successful and in order to be responsible, in defending the people that claim to be helping has to start in this way about me taking these local communities putting them at the Forefront and just giving them the tools to push forward the things that they need in order to best serve them.
[38:44] Yeah and I want to talk about a little bit later in this episode some of the strategies that corporations use and employ to undermine these communities that have the political solution but before that lets hear from Cosmo in the UK, so all you people across the pond can know what's going on in your backyard.
[39:04] I'm here with Cosmo cattell student activist and organizer in the UK how are you, thanks for joining us. You're an organizer with Earth strike right what's going on with our strike right now.
[39:24] Start Online Reddit.
[39:54] Yes it's so what kind of changes this Earth strike targeting or prioritizing.
[40:09] Social system change like in the face of climate change a we need radical restructuring our time as we need to be politicians to to finally wake up and start dealing with this problem but at the same time. What the labor movement involves and you want workers to be at the Forefront of that.
[40:53] Okay so you said September 20th and September 27th I went most of the general structure having what is that going to look like.
[41:16] Hey I can call. Workouts.
[41:40] Are you working with some people from XR Rebellion I know that started in London right that's a movement that has similar goals.
[41:48] So what's happening. Organization. Everyone. Buy small action. Rest. The last one.
[43:11] Yeah it's all over the news.
[43:50] That's great let's see if we can keep that momentum guy look at you personally involved in this work.
[43:57] Under the environment. Lost yet. Female cat names.
[45:09] Yeah I think that's a great point you noticed you can't look around at the state of climate change and consequences we face without. Feelings of anxiety many people experience depression I experienced that in a certain that you're listening to this podcast you know you might get anxiety but. What you're saying is there's a way out and that's organizing and actually working towards a solution and towards positive change.
[45:46] Thanks so much for keeping us updated Cosmo and that's a luck on your way.
[45:53] I think the cosmos had something important there which is the need to link the environmental movement with other movements like the labor movement in a cosmo reference the fact that I'd what if we get rid of fossil fuel companies, and Industrial agriculture will that's a lot of workers who are going to be impacted and we don't need to be leaving them behind, when the ones responsible are really the CEOs in the executive managers so how can we join forces with the labor movement, because if she was connected and something Jacob said earlier kind of in the same vein of this is that, many marginalized groups for long-time have not felt like the environmental movement stands with them. And so this is the time to undo a lot of that disconnection we need to be forging bonds with people across many different sectors because we are all connected to the environmental issue, again Jacob was talking about how colonialism is embedded with climate change and we talked about this in our ipcc report that episode where even the ipcc recognizes that if we don't treat indigenous people with protection, and listen to them we're not going to be able to solve these problems.
[47:06] Everyone is going to be impacted by climate change fighting climate change will impact everyone so if you're not Bridging the Gap between those who share your own experience and those who will be impacted across the Sun border between you two, we're not going to have as much strength as we need to really tackle this problem.
[47:26] But as much as we spend fighting for these things Daniel there are unfortunately moneyed interests who are out there trying to do the opposite trying to disperse these movements trying to discredit these activists, I think it's maybe we're taking just a moment to talk about some of these groups some of these people and exactly their techniques in this process. So it's our favorite time Dan a little bit of History are you ready for this.
[47:51] Throw the book at me.
[47:52] In 1982 Daniel there was this PR firm called Pagan International that route a to effectively defend against activist corporations must plan to quote separate The Fanatic activist leaders. From the overwhelming majority of their followers decent concerned people who are willing to judge us on the basis of our openness and usefulness and quill. Don't call us we'll divide and conquer mental illness came from the company Founders military backgrounds in counter-insurgency, in fact after leaving the Army Rafael Pagan the creator of pagan International went to work as a consultant for multinational corporations trying to invest in developing countries. And he honed is anti activist strategies by working with Nestle during their baby formula debacle in the 70s that likely resulted in the deaths of at least a million and pints per year in developing countries. If we didn't need more reasons not to like Nestle.
[48:52] That was a huge huge scandal.
[48:54] Yeah and if you ever read about this Nestle baby formula Scandal go look it up but it's honestly shocking and they've been a real incredible job covering up a lot of it because of people's work like Raphael taken and other PR firms that have learned from this process. Biggest work dividing activist groups from one another and co-opting important institutions like, the Methodist Church help Shield Nestle from a more severe boycott that was currently on going with a lot of churches and religious groups as well as private citizens groups to punish Nestle more for these crimes against humanity. And he was able to convince the Methodist Church through some back and forth through some negotiations with Nestle that in fact you know what the boycott is not the best idea and that Nestle had changed so everything is good, and refers to boycott the saving the reputation of nestle and public relations and of course once you have one major cool like this Nestle contract that that pig and took care of.
[49:55] Other firm started knocking on his door beautiful wonderful ethical companies like Dow chemicals Chevron or Royal Dutch Shell. The show one is especially interesting because it was primarily over there at work in apartheid South Africa end and Pagan was able to wild rivers people's perceptions about that, and eventually though this is a billion ad man who is able to just leave without any sort of moral or ethical code I guess died and his company or was. Unfortunately or fortunately it maybe I should say closed its doors but his legacy lived on. And there was a new firm called Mongolian disco and duchin. Who took on clients such as tobacco company Philip Morris and a handful of industrial agriculture firms, is douching he took pagans original strategies and created a three-step strategy for dismantling activist and its came to be known as the duchin formula. And for those of you who are a semi we're of global Affairs War we're just paying attention to WikiLeaks documents. This company mungovan Biscoe and duchin still exist today under a new name that you may have heard before called stratfor. Take us through the addition formula explain how you can dismantle activist.
[51:16] It's is a Formula still used today by PR firms who advised corporations on how to dismantle opposition to the activities and it's it's a pretty simple formula. It seeks to take activist nonprofit organizations and other groups and categorize them into four different types you have radicals. Idealist realist and opportunist the three-step duchin formula is then to First isolate the radicals. And then cultivate the idealist and educate them into becoming realist and then finally Co-op the realest into agreeing with industry. Okay now so what are these for subtype so first you have the radicals these are the people who are the most threatening to Corporation. They want systemic change they are typically anti-corporate in their fight and they want an end to the evil that they see. And radical kind of has a political connotation and it's been framed a certain way in media but, these are usually people born out of a necessity to fight it could be a rule farmer who is having his soil poisoned by a nearby chemical company or it could be an indigenous community living in the rainforest, well companies raise their land and set fire to their homes or could be like the Puerto Rican communities that Jacob was mentioning or other groups were trying to defend their home.
[52:39] These people are the most likely to organize direct actions against companies and they're not going to compromise. The next most threatening groups these corporations is the ideal it and these people according to the pr strategy, have a moral or emotional reason for their position they want what is right and what is just and fair in according to duchin himself, quote idealist what a perfect world because of their intrinsic altruism however they have a vulnerable point, if they can be shown that their position is an opposition to an industry and cannot be at the CLE Justified they will change their position and quote. And then finally you have realist and realist are able to quote live with trade-offs willing to work within the system. Not interested in radical change pragmatic the realest should always receive the highest priority in any strategy dealing with a public policy issue.
[53:37] And quote. Of course you do have the opportunist those are just people who they'll side with whichever entity gives in the most advantages of the forces most powerful and corporations can generally, rely on them to support their cost so those are the four subtypes in it and it's important to know how corporations categorize these activist because. Like I said there's a very clear and direct strategy of divide and conquer where again from the corporate perspective the most important thing is to isolate those radicals first and foremost. Write those indigenous people having their Forest burned down we'll just cut them off from communication or turn them into the bad guys so no one will listen or trust them. Because those are the ones that aren't going to compromise it's important from the corporate perspective to separate them from anyone else but they don't want them to influence other people's perspectives.
[54:32] And once they've done that the goal is to educate quote on quote the idealists these are the people at the moral compass right. And try to try to get them to see you know of course you want a better world but look we need to think more realistic and more pragmatic if you're not willing to compromise and you're not going to get any of your objective saw. And kind of push them into the realist perspective and then once you have them in the realest category. It can be pretty simple to compromise with people ultimately so that no fundamental change to your business ever happy. And you can continue business as usual.
[55:11] Will it talk about business as usual for a second and I think this is what really interested me in this this method in this methodology which was what was a large Wikileaks dumb. And somebody strap for materials came out in in that material, are there was a PowerPoint presentation and we're going to link it on the website come check it out this we don't have to go to WikiLeaks if you don't want to for whatever reason and so this PowerPoint presentation was from, Global Security firm Stratford. Did the rebranding of this company we mentioned earlier and it was directed at a Canadian oil sands Corporation Called Suncor in 2010. Not at the time of Suncor was facing heavy public outcry over its plans to expand oil sands extraction in Alberta and the surrounding region.
[56:00] And they were hired to consult them on a way to deal with this activist movement that had popped up and so first rap or identifies all the activist groups and categorizes them, based on the framework that Daniel just mentioned and so under the radicals group they have the indigenous environmental Network oil change International and Rising tide North America. There were some groups that sort of, Bridge multiple sections these groups and they have this really actually interesting Venn diagram that they constructed they can check this out a Greenpeace and rainforest Action Network, are some of these groups that straddled between radical and idealist if you look at the idealistic to remember what this is bees are people who, are sort of resistant to working in the system and believe that there are moral and ethical outcomes no matter what the situation is and they're going to try and stick to that as much as possible these are the people that, stop at 4 or these companies are trying to turn into realist this is groups like Amnesty International. Communities for a better environment Earthworks plane Justice of the Sierra Club, and then there are a couple groups once again that span of this idealist category and the next category which is realist and an S groups like environmental defense Forest ethics and West Coast environmental law.
[57:12] And remember these categories are being defined by stratfor itself I'm sure none of these groups would self-identify as realist right, oh we're willing to work within the system this is more like a intelligence thing right like, drivers coming to this corporations that okay I know Sierra Club is acting you know like they don't want to compromise but actually we have some connections there we realize hey we can actually push them more towards our agenda if we can just, kind of give them some pragmatic option.
[57:41] That's that's an important thing to remember these aren't just arbitrary terms these are defining how these groups are willing to interact. Did social change that they're seeking a realist really wants to stick within the status quo and believe that that's the only type of changes possible, an idealist thinks that there is something greater possible but it's open to compromise, I can be converted into a realist and a radical is never going to compromise they know their Vision they don't trust the corporations they don't trust the government and they want to stick to what it is and they believe in, and so they're much more difficult to manipulate than an idealist is willing to compromise or realist who believes that the only method of getting things done is compromised in the first place.
[58:23] Will Huda stratfor identifies the realest in this 2010 presentation.
[58:27] So in this 2010 presentation are actually some very popular Charities that our beloved and it's supposed to right now people to donate to these groups to protect the rainforest or whatever, other groups like The National Wildlife Federation the World Wildlife Fund and the natural resources defense Council, and I think the National Wildlife Federation did they come up on the show before Daniel as the people who license some land off to be.
[58:51] Do you think of The Nature Conservancy.
[58:52] Nature Preserve with nature conservancy definitely realist.
[58:56] Yeah at least when it comes to endanger chicken.
[59:02] Yeah that that that's episode 71 the big mean corporate machine with the attwater prairie chicken.
[59:08] Well either way the presentation goes on to say, this is what these groups are going to do they're going to create a campaign to attack you with the goal of getting you to agree to some Global code of conduct, they're going to do it by targeting your Upstream business that is oil production and they're going to Target your Downstream where your ultimate consumers are on and on and on. And then in one slide stratfor presents a table demonstrating that in every situation with activist you're going to have a public demand. And then a quote-unquote real demand that you could actually settle for. For instance a campaign against Victoria's Secret might involve the public demand that all products be made from recycled content. Hey since that would destroy the business the real demand might just be to switch to different production Mills. Or a campaign against gold sourcing might have the public demand to end acquiring gold from environmentally destructive Minds. Or to change sourcing but the quote-unquote real demand is really just to participate in Irma the initiative for responsible mining insurance. And for Suncor they identify the public demand as an end to oil sand extraction. But the real demand as just adopting a code of conduct.
[1:00:27] This this one I think was really interesting for me to read because it goes on to mention that a code of conduct is extremely preferable to a company, because it's not a regulation something that they're bound to buy law it's just really a window dressing whatever they're doing and they can stick to it or they don't have to it doesn't matter but the key was avoid at all cost any sort of Regulation. And they really true that point home they didn't so they took all this these ideas, and they went even farther they went on to identify how these groups will eventually form a concerted campaign against Suncor, and they they go out to identify all the targets if they're going to have and which organizations will spearhead these different parts for assemble Force FX will be putting pressure on ships. To purchase fuel from oil sands, the West Coast environmental laws going to try and use public fear of oil spills to get oil tankers blocked from the British Columbia coast and, then they go on even further Daniel NC outlines a bunch of different responses that Suncor could employ to ultimately defeat, these efforts things like rapid negotiations or maybe something called structure dialogue, there's one called flying in information which involves sunk or creating their own environmental agenda and relying on positive press, hopefully drown out activist voices and make them lose credibility.
[1:01:50] Some of these really remind me of that original Nestle a situation where one of the major things Nestle found was really successful in turning the people's outcry away from this it was, they said that they was busy board call the international regulatory board of baby formula or some name like that and that. Ultimately approved the reformulation of nestle formula what they neglected to mention was that the board was created by and controlled by Nestle, it was some organization that completely made up made look like an actual thing and a pointed to it at the say Hey look, this board says Nestle is good so you can definitely trust him and therefore you can trust us that that we're not a good guy. And all these remind me of that kind of parallel construction that's going on.
[1:02:37] Corporations can be creative but my favorite protocol the stratfor presents as an option for Suncor is the simple no response. The rationale for a no response protocol is the activist are not going to stop oil sands growth they have no power in Alberta or Ottawa and the chances of success with the US government. The pro to a no response plan is that it reduces executive time and attention paid to this campaign and no concessions are needed from the company. Akon to this strategy is it does not resolve campaign and ensures long-term public campaign against oil sands operation. And then they have a best-case and worst-case to this protocol and the best case is that groups moved to fracturing or some other venue to press for the first major code of contact. Which I think is really funny because they're basically saying hey if we just ignore the activist completely don't say a word. Maybe they'll just get bored of and I'll move on to the fracking industry in and give them all their attention and leave us alone. But then here's the worst-case possibility to this approach.
[1:03:53] Activist campaign becomes the most significant environmental campaign of the decade is activist on both sides of the Border come to view the industry as arrogant, code of conduct a man strengthen Downstream activism intensifies. But that seems like a hard choice for a company to make David.
[1:04:12] Oh no the code of conduct a man's are strengthening what's going to happen.
[1:04:16] Yeah either the leave us alone or will inadvertently create the most significant environmental movement in decade.
[1:04:23] I guess that's kind of what's happened with the climate change situation where, what is Pretend This is not an issue we'll just keep riding it off or keep it buried for forever in a whoops now there's people shutting down Bridges and everyone's a communist or socialist calling for the guillotining of my head I think we might have might have with this one guys.
[1:04:42] Yeah but why is it important to talk about corporate strategies for defeating activism.
[1:04:48] Today we have these International movements building coalitions of solidarity building momentum and strength and I think we should keep at the Forefront of our minds. There are very powerful institutions that will do everything they can to put a stop to that. And it's not going to be just coming down with a hammer it's going to be flanking you know you might be the first in line at a protest March and you look around you see all the people shouting with you. And you say we're going to win this but then what you don't realize is maybe a block down that company that you're protesting or that action you're doing. Is being countered by the fact that some executive sitting down with a non-profit Saint look. Those radicals out there they're causing trouble they're a bad look and you align yourself with them you're going to lose donors if it's going to be bad luck. We will settle with you would make some incremental change if you agree to it and then it'll make you look good you get to look like you did something we'll get to continue on as usual and everything will be fine. So keep that in mind are you building support are you building coalitions with other organizations and other groups and are you really sticking to your original demand. And are you guarding against the isolation that is going to be imposed on you.
[1:06:17] And can you recognize when you're being separated from your support group that might be cause for alarm.
[1:06:25] I think knowing these mechanisms and knowing what to watch for is is really important for anybody who's just starting to dip their toes, into this world were you going for seasoned activist a lot of its don't have this media training who don't have a PR perspective and don't realize how they can, and are being manipulated by these well-funded PR firms advertising agencies and corporations and a mini cases also intelligence agencies and law enforcement groups around the world. So knowing what to look for knowing what the operating mechanism of these groups are, and knowing that you know some organizations are identified as basically pushovers as a realist we're always going to give in and know that if you are working or cooperating or donating or volunteering with these organizations that you are doing so with a knowledge, that a group like this is always going to be working Within These systems always can be compromising with the people who are ultimately destroying the world I think that's important knowledge, and I know that it's some point those compromises are going to have to wind we're going to have to make demands that you don't need to be met, or the system will collapse and there's no more room for compromise in that says so it's just something to keep in mind as you go forward since we are talking to activist throughout this episode and and throughout the show especially. I know that there are people who are funded, my Paychex was salaries who only exist in their professional lives to tear down the things that you are pouring your passion time heart soul sweat and blood into.
[1:07:53] End in there's a lot of them but we have ultimately the end of everything is a fact that we are on the right side, and that will always give us the energy and I'll always give us the the people and the momentum to push us for even though that we often times almost always have not only. The world stacked against us in the way that things are right now and I'd only these systems that were fighting against not only are these these illegal tools but also just be massive amounts of capital is it sounds bad but, change happens slowly and then all at once and I think we're we're somewhere in that in-between stage and the next few years ago to be interesting.
[1:08:36] Do not compromise don't let your friends compromise well that's a lot of thing.
[1:08:41] As always Daniel but think about it we hope you. You can buy more information about everything we talked about today you can find that PowerPoint you can find links to WikiLeaks another new stories on this mechanism of attacking. Activists or information on the upcoming Earth strike and how you can be involved in your local community if you'd like to as well as a full transcript of the show on our website at ashes ashes. Org.
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