This week we're trying a new format for periodic updates. Daniel, David, and Moriah King all sit down together to discuss a handful of important articles and texts they selected covering everything from dolphins to tragedies. We go over the key points of each piece and spend a little time discussing the ramifications of what these (typically dark) pieces of news means for us and the entire world. Hopefully we take away some valuable lessons that allow us to build better things.
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(This is a temporary, machine translated transcript. We'll fix it soon!)
[0:05] David Torcivia.
[0:08] Daniel Forkner.
[0:09] Moriah King.
[0:11] And this is Ashes Ashes, a show about systemic issues, cracks in civilization, collapse of the environment, and if we're unlucky, the end of the world.
[0:21] But if we learn from all of this, maybe we can stop that. The world might be broken, but it doesn't have to be.
[0:34] Let me do the interior Daniel if you have something.
[0:37] I would probably just Bumble and Bumble about.
[0:41] So this week we're taking a slightly different Direction with our weekly episodes and with this show so often were talking about these things that maybe are happening right now but the consequences are we off in the future, but increasingly as our world collapses around us these things that we hope will not come to pass are becoming current events in news of the day, so that we take a chance and look at some of the news articles that are happening right now and have a little discussion about them, so we hope you'll enjoy this special Roundtable edition of Ashes ashes.
[1:13] And we're happy to be joined Again by recurring guests Moriah King who's going to sit in on these conversations provide a little perspective from our limited view here David.
[1:24] Yeah I'm looking forward to it.
[1:25] As are we so what do you want to start David you want start with one of my articles one of your articles want to.
[1:32] What list is the format is each one of us brought two articles to the show maybe we can tell them maybe we don't, I were just going to quickly summarize what they are about you can find a link to them on the website if you want, to read them yourself and now is a good place maybe the pause catch up on them if you want to feel like you're participating in this but if you just want to get the basic overview will handle all that right here, don't worry I these are all very general ideas we picked them because they address something that we feel is important to discuss at the current moment I have one that's on surveillance and profit, and one also that is on the unfortunate very recent shooting in the mosques of New Zealand, I know this is a triggering thing for some people this will be the last thing we discuss today so if you don't want to listen to that don't worry you can cut out at the end of the show.
[2:22] And I brought some I read an article about Freedom Technologies and then another article on mining and Mining Finance.
[2:33] Nice I brought articles about dolphins and time.
[2:39] Dolphins in time or like dolphins.
[2:42] Like dolphins, and time.
[2:46] The two articles one on dolphins and one.
[2:49] Or make note Dolphins semicolon time.
[2:53] Grammar is not your strong suit.
[2:59] Let's talk about the Dolphins what's happening with the dolphin.
[3:02] What's up with the dolphins.
[3:04] As you all are aware dolphins are incredibly intelligent they're social creatures and if you're unconvinced here's a funny quote from Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
[3:18] If you're unconvinced of the intelligence of dolphins here's a quote from a piece of fiction. Check carry-on.
[3:27] Cool quotes. On the planet Earth man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than Dolphins because he had achieved so much the wheel New York Wars and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time, but conversely the Dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons and quote.
[3:54] Wait so we're supposed to be convinced that dolphins are smart because dolphins in this fictional book also thought that they were smarter than humans.
[4:02] The point is Mariah and David that. We published an episode last October and number 44 do not disturb, aware we interviewed dr. Bernie Krause on sound ecology and the way that dolphins and other animals organize their vocal patterns in the wild. According to what he called niches right that either temporal or frequency nieces and a couple weeks later on October 24th a paper was published by researchers out of Cornell University in New York, and the University of Maryland, which is encouraging first off because one of the things that dr. Crouse was frustrated with is how behind the United States is in soundscape ecology research, anyway this paper examines the effects of ship noise on the vocal patterns of bottlenose dolphins in the western North Atlantic Ocean, do you remember episode 44 Mariah do not disturb you remember David.
[5:01] Of course it's one of my favorites Daniel.
[5:03] In the basic premise is that a species organized their voices in the wild in a really unique ways and why is that, I have never thought of never realized and in a lot of ways the research is way far behind but yeah it is like if a bird is chirping or something, he wants that that chirp to be heard by presumably other members of its species but there's all these other animal is going on and off right there's this background noise of wind and water and all that stuff so in order to have its voice heard it's got to find a place on the bandwidth of sound, that is not being taken up by anything else and there's so many functions that can be, are they can be carried out by this unique you know Finding of a unique place for your voice whether that's hiding from predators or finding a mate finding food, all kinds of things and so when we introduced sound from the human cacophony of all our activities it can disrupt the ability for animals to use their voices the way they've evolved to do in a can cuz a whole breakdown of their business or their ability to survive.
[6:08] Azan. Did you adjust that language part yet cuz I have things to say.
[6:14] So going back to this paper that was published last October, dolphins are super smart and we know this in part because the language that Dolphins use to communicate is super complex right, we can look at a spectrogram, of dolphin whistles and see all this complexity and so we know that they're conveying not just information about Predators or food in the area but they also use their voices to navigate to convey social idea it just like us their voices are distinctly individualized and these researchers hypothesize that the introduction of ship noise, a vessels in the area would require defense to alter their communication patterns and that is exactly what they discovered.
[6:56] What you're saying here is that these dolphins. Are having to deal with this constant loud droning of all these ships and I think it's good remember here that sound travels much farther through water than it does above. So is single ship can have very wide-reaching effects in the end I mean even when you're standing on top of the ship.
[7:16] I sent a ships are allowed.
[7:18] Yeah they're loud and that's just the above ground stuff so that everything is happening beneath the waters can be that much louder and, you're having to deal with this constant cacophony I guess and it's not surprising that they would have to adapt to that in some way.
[7:35] But can you imagine like constantly the steering Exploud found this all the time while also trying to like well you probably can't imagine cuz their human but that's.
[7:46] You know I was thinking about this and did you ever notice how like say the three of us are talking and we're in a quiet room, and there's no distractions we can we can talk about all kinds of things right really complex things we can talk about, these types of systemic issues we can form really elaborate sentences but then you take the three of us and you transport it to us to like a a really loud bar and, Brooklyn friends dance with like music blaring and when I find myself in the situation is literally the only sentence I might Usher is like I'll point across the room in just a bathroom or something. Just to let you know where I'm going like I'm not going to be able to form really complex sentences with all that noise until that's what these researchers figured out what these Dawson.
[8:28] I'm having trouble forming complex sentences right now. There's such a tragedy to this I mean we were so thoroughly destroyed so many things I environmentally in terms of ecosystems around the world with the you know everything we do, and now you know we yeah I guess Extinction of all these animals, is something terrible and we should feel bad about it but there's something specifically heartbreaking about the idea that these ships which primarily are traveling around because of our global trade needs and how much of this is just caring useless stuff that we don't need or maybe exporting that garbage Daniel like we talked about last week from the UK or from the US across the ocean to the Pacific. Like very useless actions in the grand scheme of these things were talking about efficiency of of resources but.
[9:20] I think tourism is also a big part 2.
[9:23] It is but it's nowhere near as much as as Beasley industrial scale of it.
[9:28] Well I was going to say when I think of dolphin I remember my time at Cambodia in the Mekong dolphin the river dolphins are like pretty much extinct and it was pretty much just because. A lot of pollution but also a lot of Tourism lots of boats and yeah like the noise isn't the sound.
[9:47] Yeah we have all the pollution and stuff coming from these things and yeah we're contributing to carbon dioxide released and warming the world up and killing all these creatures this way but also in this very heartbreaking way this this unseen on thought about externality in this case just loud sound is actively making one of our most intelligent other creatures on this planet actively Dumber because of this. We're making the world a less risk place and it's not necessarily impact an ecosystem directly though I'm sure it is in the specific example but there's something so sad about that.
[10:21] Yeah actually commented in our Discord Channel about this article I shared an I said, this ocean noise causing Dolphins to simplify their language is pretty profound not only are we making ourselves Dumber but we're dumbing-down animal culture 2. And someone commented and they Julian Xian they said that would make one hell of a Black Mirror episode have something like the Windsor Ontario Hyundai gradually gets louder and drowns out human communication. And I had to look that up because I didn't know what the Windsor Ontario hum is have y'all heard of this. So basically in this there's a town in Ontario Canada where there's this intermittent low frequency hum it starts and it stops, and it drives people crazy and no one knows where it's coming from the University of Windsor actually did a study in 2014 to try and locate the source of it but they couldn't really definitively say where it came from or even why but, suggested it might be propped getting from some industrial activity like pouring mining or something like that.
[11:26] Not even Justice sound Daniel but how much of our environment around us is just constantly barraging us with this useless information cuz absolutely the sound is part of it but I guess you're walking through City, like when I walk downtown in Manhattan that points there's just between all the sounds and the endless advertisements and billboards and electronic screens that are just everywhere around me my whole attention is being. Endlessly by people trying to sell something to me or trying to get me to act and some certain type of behavior and and it's easy to ignore it at least like on a very, high-level butt. What is it doing to my subconscious all the stuff that we expose ourselves to all the time like is this actively changing our behaviors is changing our language as well and I'm sure the answer absolutely has to be of course, but it's not something we think about in our day-to-day life and then the fact, we're carrying the same destructive Tendencies out to the natural world as well as just like I said heartbreak.
[12:23] I never actually said what the paper found specific.
[12:28] What for the Dolphins or the other.
[12:30] The Dolphins.
[12:32] The Dolphins score much lower on IQ tests so therefore that science has recommended purging them so only the smartest Dolphins survive.
[12:41] So specifically they measure 11 different traits in Dauphin whistles there's they had to rayshun starting in frequencies minimum maximum Delta frequency, the presence of a harmonic number of extrema inflection point Saddles and steps I don't know any of this is but it sounds complex and they compare this to.
[13:00] Ashes everyone.
[13:02] I don't even think my voice has that many complexities but.
[13:06] Use only has one that they measure its smoothness.
[13:09] What's my smooth level right now.
[13:12] Like.
[13:13] Probably I'm probably like a six hoping to get.
[13:15] I was going to say like I said.
[13:17] Finish your thought 6.
[13:19] Okay so they compared the dolphin whistles to the frequencies of like the ship vessels, and they found that in the presence of the ship noise dolphin significantly reduced both the complexity and the duration of the whistles from the paper quote it is unknown what impact the shortening and simplification of calls may have on the information communicated, there are to our knowledge currently no studies that have addressed the call receivers to determine if and how call simplification may affect Dolphin Fitness, vocal communication is important in Dauphin mother Offspring interactions and social bonding the frequency modulation pattern of calls Carrie's identity and other information and consequently there could be changes to the level of information communicated if individuals respond to increased ambient Noise by simplifying the features of their whistles the ambient noise environment could also affect vocal learning as young animals exposed to elevated noise may hear adjusted calls. Other members of their species which I think that's what really stands out to me I think you caught that rise like. It's not just that they're simplifying their language but they could be forgoing the passing-down of knowledge and accumulated culture.
[14:34] But that's so scary because it's like it I think you said they're like it's like vocal training or their hearing their mother's calls but through the back.
[14:55] The context of that sound so I think you said it wouldn't even sound the same I don't know if that makes sense.
[15:01] Because these older dolphins have adjusted their language to deal with the noise of the younger Dolphins never learn the more complex language they never learn how to speak in that way and so that means that. Even if the sound was eliminated completely like if we're like oh this is terrible to take all the ships off the ocean it doesn't matter because that information has been lost cuz it has been passed on to the next Generation so we wrecked. Caliber countless many years of dolphin language Evolution because we're just constantly blasting this noise into the ocean. We spent 30 minutes talking about dolphins you always.
[15:36] But it's interesting it's interesting is that.
[15:40] So dolphins getting Dumber humans getting Dumber because of whatever this Windsor Ontario hum is Plus, all the other noise that we deal with on a day-to-day basis all the distractions like you're mentioning David plus all the CO2 in the air like we talked about in last-gasp all kinds of things but when we shift gears David what do you have for us.
[15:59] Yeah okay so what I have right here is a little bit, so it's it's a pretty benign article published Bloomberg everyone's favorite financial news source came out just a couple days ago actually in March 21st this year and it's article that sort of. Gives an insight to how some of these hedge funds and and Traders are working the financial Market to get ahead of each other and find an extra little bit of information I can give him the edge in the treating to make a profit. I'm so basically what's happening is These funds are specifically looking at boil. Companies refineries pipelines different people doing the distribution and trying to figure out anything they can to. Like I said a leg up and what they've done is started using all these surveillance techniques to find this additional information and then we were to privatize Mass surveillance in order to make a box. But let me explain this is not something that's new.
[17:02] What surveillance are they using and how they making money.
[17:04] What does point is not uncommon to be doing this kind of stuff people are pulling all sorts information from the internet there are some hedge funds that are actively trying to look, like unprotected databases which is sort of a gray black hat area hacking to try and get information there are people who you know for a long time they hire private investigators or people be on the ground to watch stuff and see if anything looks out of place and my kingdom in Edge. With the Advent of technology that enables master balance and the ability to cheaply access it outside of the state, but instead and the Private Industry has totally changed everything, so if for a while they've been looking at satellite photos as they become available I think actually some of them now even have their own satellites that they use for monitoring free type of things and a Daniel we had mentioned at some point that like. Siamese ponds were counting how many cars were in parking lots at Walmart using satellite or aerial photography things like that.
[18:01] Yeah I remember I remember several years ago there was a small startup that own satellites like really high quality real time. Photographing satellites and then Google bought that up and then, Financial companies we're Contracting Google or is or trying to purchase these satellite for themselves because they realized we can get a leg up on financial speculation with real time satellite images because. We can look at the parking lot of Walmart in real-time track how many cars go and that will give us and idea of the retail Market way before you know these large bureaucracies like US Government release official numbers on on this stuff and at the same time we can use these to track, how wheat is growing in the midwest somewhere, to see what the crap Commodities Market is going to look like before anyone else doesn't so yeah this is been going on for a while.
[18:56] Drifting in the student highly new dystopic level and and maybe saw an article or maybe we talked about it on here we had so many episodes hard to keep him straight but few months ago it was revealed that you could basically for a hundred or so dollars by location information on almost anybody, as long as you have their phone number.
[19:15] That's so crazy like $100 per person or.
[19:18] Yeah it was I mean it's basically nothing and there are services that buy this data from the phone companies and then package it up and then you can purchase access to it and its use for private investigators bounty hunters debt collectors always people who might need to know where somebody is and it's very publicly accessible you can go online search this do-it-yourself it's no problem.
[19:37] Witnesses real-time location data or is this.
[19:39] This is no this is real time date.
[19:42] Question that's crazy that you can buy location data for that cheaply and there's like okay so there's like nothing you can do to stop that like you can't like turn off by you can't turn off any.
[19:51] You can not have a phone and it doesn't.
[19:54] That's just so ridiculous it could be one of those fucking what do you call them the throwaways what do you call those phone.
[20:01] Burner stick out you shouldn't use them anymore and listen to the conversation but anyway. What they've done is These funds have identified people who work on these oil pipeline oil rigs refineries, telephone numbers but also contractors who might be employed by them other people and are constantly surveilling them figuring out whether moving and see like if it's the middle of the night and somebody who is normally working during day shift woken up drives to work and is working on the refinery as well as a bunch of other people they know using this metadata basically that there has been a disaster or problem at one of these refineries in his going to impact, production War might be the same case for pipelining, somebody's driving out to somewhere that there normally isn't that means that something needs to be serviced things are going to be impacted and they're going to be showing up on the final end of quarter report and if you can short that beforehand, then you can make a big buck on this.
[20:56] That's so crazy like literally you can't even fucking what can you do like you said what don't own a phone like that's fucking rude.
[21:04] I mean this is like such an amazing invasion of privacy just to make a little bit of money, the reason I bring this out specifically I mean most of us aren't Oil Workers most of us aren't working a hedge fund so like we pretty much don't have any skin in this particular story, but I think it's a great illustration of this type of surveillance that is happening increasingly all around us that has been an able to buy our acceptance over all of the general Trend toward surveillance, Solis tools have been made and they're all out there and now they're increasingly accessible and maybe it says headphones using it now.
[21:38] As this technology is cheaper and more ubiquitous and a try and expand the market in which they can sell it to we're going to see the decreasing price went to see increasing uses increasingly retailers and advertisers are going to use this information to try and Target Us in various ways your health insurance companies are going to be using this data at your auto insurance companies all these people who have some sort of steak and where you are and what actions you might be taking are going to be playing into this and then imagine to like it if I'm a person of interest notable celebrity or something or politician then is going to be tons of people trying to purchase this data for me and and I imagine there are some protections available to these people, but it only takes one small crack in this overall system and then all this date is loose and free and in the newspapers get me interested in that people trying to Blackmail tabloids, lobbying firms other groups there's so much value in knowing where somebody is, and not just the obvious value but like the things you can do with this data in order to manipulate both that individual and others it's unbelievable the panopticon that we built. And it to enable all of this to allow all these practices to occur and how little Fanfare that has been about it and it just like General acceptance.
[22:52] Right it seems like just a few years ago, there's like this National debate about whether the US government itself should be able to subpoena AT&T for cell phone data and then here we are fast forward to 2019 and anyone can buy that. For $100 and then use it to speculate on financial markets like we were we were discussing whether it was even right to do that in the interest of National Security and now we basically just, giving it out to anyone with the who's willing to pay for it.
[23:23] It just one really funny thing I want to point out at the end of this article that that has nothing to do with the specific surveillance part but if you scroll to the bottom of the Bloomberg article. It has its little passage this very innocuous in its right at the end it says orbital which is the company in question here that's doing this are enabling this tracking, has received funding in the past from Bloomberg beta a venture-capital unit of Bloomberg.
[23:46] Kelly reporting on themselves.
[23:48] So they're reporting on this leg thing but if you read this article it's very much not a negative look at it something look how shocking this is it says look how cool this Tech is look how.
[24:00] That's what I thought when I read it.
[24:02] It allows them to invest all this allows them to make millions of dollars by knowing this.
[24:07] It's so arrogant.
[24:08] And it's an ad this is an add their advertising this company that they haven't invested in and that and that like extra layer of of just like the complete dystopia we live in I think really makes this article for me.
[24:23] Yeah I didn't catch that last bit but before even knowing that I kind of read it a little bit it seemed really kind of like hell yeah hey look at what we're doing maybe you can be creative and do something like this to the Future catch up like silly again.
[24:38] Well I think this would make a good segue into the other article I wrote that I read because you know we talked about surveillance a lot and we talked about, the motivations for it you know being prophet and you know the ways you can manipulate for political gain and all this but, now I'm thinking about it in this in terms of this concept of time and how time accelerates in our modern economic society and I see surveillance as it's having to do with this and it said the article I read it's not really the news or anything like that but it's, the sociologist who writes about social acceleration and you never think about the surveillance what is really happening is, these financial markets it's not enough to just make profit selling stocks but in order to compete in order to get better at doing that in order to keep, making the same level of profit they have to speed up the rate at which they can find out information and then of course the rate at which they can trade like we've all heard about, on Wall Street a few years ago that one company that spent like so much money to, build their own fiber optics cable so they could get a little bit closer to the stock exchange and increase their trading speed by like 002 seconds right and so surveillance is kind of the same thing it's not enough to just find out the next day in the news how the oil markets are doing you need to actually surveil the workers in real time to figure out.
[26:04] As best you can what the extraction rates are in Ender's this acceleration going on in so many aspects of our society think about money itself work used to be cash and then it became the ability to transfer money through bank accounts and then we got credit cards and it's this shortening of time in order to complete transaction, and of course, what goes along with this is the reshaping of culture in an accelerated way the way we live our lives is accelerate the way we relate to other people is accelerated so I want to flash this out just a little bit I want to start with, something I read a while back in Primo Levi book if this is a man and he's a female Levy wasn't Italian chemist a Jewish chemist who was in prison and off switch, you wrote this book in 1947 on his experiences and then there's there's one chapter where he and a few other chemists they they're their prison guards found out that they know chemistry and there's a nearby private company that needs cheap labor so they are awaiting a chemistry examination which will determine if they qualify for a specialist job at this local company, and if they wait to take this test Levi reflects on the absurdity of taking a professional exam as this emaciated starving.
[27:29] You know bad smelling man he mentions the snot running down his nose he's going to take this test in a language he he doesn't understand and he's wondering if he's even going to survive right after this test and he writes, quote 3 days past, three of those usual in memorable days so long while they are passing and so short afterwards and we were already all tired of believing in the chemistry examination, so keep that phrase in mind and memorable days is oh finally fast forward a little bit he and six other men are summoned for this test and they, placed in the lobby and they're told to wait in silence until the exam and he says quote we're satisfied with this waiting, when one Waits time moves smoothly without need to intervene and drive it forward, while when one works every minute mousse painfully and has to be laborious Lee driven away we are always happy to wait, we are capable of waiting for hours with the complete up to sandner shh of spiders and old webs.
[28:33] And so there's this idea that time can be experienced and perceived in different ways right again how Levi rights, about how the memorable days were long while they were passing but so short afterwards and this is something any of us can relate to, not to say we can relate to being in a concentration camp but having the different experiences of time is something we've all felt maybe you've worked a boring job and you stared at the clock wondering why it moves so slow this has a name it's called the subjective Paradox of time, and so this German sociology Professor hartmut Rosa argues that the acceleration of time under capitalism has been affecting, our collective experience of time. This is what he writes about in his books total acceleration a new theory of modernity which I haven't read yet but the article I read was just an interview with him, let me quote from his explanation of the subjective Paradox of time.
[29:34] Quote when we have a really exciting day with a lot of powerful and memorable events and Impressions then time flies during the day, but when we look back in the evening it feels like it was a very long day, conversely when we have a totally boring day which we spend waiting and some meaningless waiting room time goes by very slowly but when we go to bed in the evening it seems like we had a very short day like we just got up, this is called the subjective Paradox of time we feel that the day or the year was long when it leaves a lot of traces in our memory and our identity. We remember the things that truly impresses the moments which we really appropriate. Therefore if we have lots of experiences that resonate with us deeply the year or a life seems long in hindsight.
[30:24] Seems real long right now.
[30:29] Well well let me speed it up for you. So one more quote he goes on to say how this leads to alienation in our modern society quote but in late modern lives we lose the capacity to appropriate our experiences we do many many things but they do not really touch or affect us at the end of the day we have forgotten them this is part of what, I call alienation because most of what we do does not leave any traces in our memory biography or identity we feel time is flying by quickly, this is a two-fold explanation for the subjective aside of social acceleration okay info. I think we're really resonated with me about this is it I think it goes back to episode 63 we did busy work right which we discussed bulshit jobs, because while I'm more of us are doing more and more work at this faster and faster Pace being driven by the, insufferable managers we believe all this extra work is just bulshit we're bored we're doing monotonous things and so we experience the passage of time as it occurs as being excruciating really slow and painful, but by the end of the week when we look back on our time it seems like it flew by because nothing we did resonated with us it was a memorable.
[31:45] Can I offer some some thoughts here are there are there more quotes that we we could do.
[31:52] Look David is he don't blame me that you came with some 200 word article from the Bloomberg. I'm sorry I didn't I research for the show.
[32:03] I meant ask them about you at school you on your research there's nothing I love more on this show, then looking back at some obscure technological invention that happened six or seven hundred years ago and seeing how that totally destroyed our sense of everything today we've done this so many times on this show Daniel Tire invention of map in the modern mapping technology and have that brought us borders the Industrial Revolution and how that dramatically changed intellectual. Very very very quickly I want to take you through just some clock stuff. I think one of the things that this article that you brought in a glosses over is is our insistence on measuring time, and how that totally changed we experience it because so often when you're doing something enjoyable you're not worrying about the clock, but when it's something awful you're like okay you know it's 4 I have another hour to go until you dragged out a changes physically how you think about time and not how you experience it. Before you jump in.
[33:02] I don't disagree with you.
[33:03] And this is this is actually I have bulshit jobs open in front of me because it has some excellent passages on time and our perception of time because it is something that is so closely linked, to our labor but David graeber in here mentions a essay called time work discipline and Industrial capitalism was rent in 1967 by ep Thompson which I think is one of the original essays here trying to rethink about.
[33:29] Which by the way is linked on the website if you go to episode 63 is web page.
[33:35] Which goes into some depth about all these different ideas about time and a relation to it in terms of Labor and an economic system, but but there is simply to break down what Graver and Will Thompson discuss is it our ability to very precisely track time and they do so on an individual basis really changed how we talk about it how we divided up our Concepts about it and ultimately the way that we experience it so back way back when so talk in the 1400 1500. There was a conception of time in terms of the little of the lifespan of somebody so you would oftentimes have if you were somebody will off philosophize about time you would put a school on your desk human school as a reminder that death is coming and that you are constantly heading towards it and need to be mindful of every day to make the most of this this Memento Mori idea.
[34:25] Then these Merchants wanted to take this idea and turn into a more industrial practice of town started building clocks at a single Clock Tower in the middle of town so that people would start dividing things up and then we fast for further and we get to the Industrial Revolution this is when we start seeing the individualization of time because pocket watches small clocks you can bring it to your house after becoming mass-produced, and this meant that the individual could for the first time really experienced their day on it accurate me a minute 2 minutes scale, and this is coming at the same time that labor itself is being what's more exploited in this same sort of mathematical Quantified way, so when you could start talking about time in terms of minutes or chunks of an hour then we could start dividing it and selling these things, in the same way so if you want to bring me on I'll work you in a 12-hour shift 16-hour shift, eventually whatever after Labor battles were fought hundreds of years later you know an 8 hour day, and this conception of free time that we would fight for would also eventually backfire and make it sound like when you're aren't on free time that means 100% belong to somebody else with his Hawaii we see someone's is bullshit the job stuff.
[35:33] I will see the emergence of, talking about time in an entirely New Way phrases like wasting time killing time saving time losing Time Racing Against Time these all started popping up in the English language, right when we started seeing the master adoption of clocks and watches because we started thinking about time not just this thing that you experienced, but it's something that you have that you can divide and use and when time became a tool our perception of it changed and then you see these problems like you're talking about Daniel where every single one of our days were doing something we don't what is agony, and time moves so slow and then we are doing this enjoyable things that disappears just like it would have always before.
[36:13] David I want to contend a little bit with your contention, and it wasn't specifically I don't disagree with you in the sense that these things have occurred I think really the question is what came first the awareness of time or the tools that we developed to track it and then speed that up, and I think you also have to ask at what at what levels, or or what caste levels in society to be shifts occur and I think now that you mention him mental Mori but that originated with merchants and it's likely that that came about as they were considering time, is there a wariness of time at already shifted because that's was kind of embedded in their nature of work of tracking shipments and it all.
[36:54] Maybe the Memento Mori idea came more from the religious aspect of it this is something priests War trying to distribute, it makes your people were utilizing these things I did I think actually it's not from from the labor that they were doing but from their efforts to quantify everything, but it also was happening and in the, upper classes that had access to these clocks first off I'm going to trickle down from there is similar to how Maps were initially affecting mapmakers and then. Trickle down to the wealthy were able to buy them change their conceptions and then eventually people caught up hundreds of years later.
[37:31] So there is obviously there's questions of origin and in historical development hearing.
[37:37] Yeah there's absolutely push and pull.
[37:39] We're going back to this particular author artman Rosa he claims that this trend of acceleration, that he says originated more in the 1700s develop not as a response to technology like clocks like we didn't accelerate because we invented the train but kind of the other way around with it rather new technology emerged in response to our relationship with time in the need to accelerate, to drive wealth accumulation faster to Aid economic growth you need it faster Railways and new forms of communication.
[38:14] I agree with him in that context but I think specifically where he mentioned in the article he's referring to transportation technology. The need to expand the length of your day because everything is moving faster and you find an expansion by yourself being able to move faster and we still talk about this today there's a company called boom that is trying to remake supersonic high-speed air travel for service between places like New York and London and their pitch if you go to their website and the way they're trying to get this venture capitalist funding is that there's not enough hours in the day sometimes you have to be somewhere in person and the only way to do that is by traveling faster, and this spirit is very much still alive and well today even when we have this instantaneous communication.
[38:58] There's no doubt that trance like a transportation is like a fundamental and need in terms of acceleration right in episode 37 Logistics of slavery we discuss Deborah Cohen's book The Deadly life of logistics and she contends that you know there's a whole layer of space, is being reorganized globally all around the idea of how do we move a crate of goods from A to B as fast as possible and with as little interruptions, as possible but I think the idea of this acceleration is that it trickles out through all these other things like even the surveillance that you talked about like yes maybe we can make the oil man move faster but we there's so many aspects of the economy that we can accelerate to drive that profit Ford some historians have pointed out that the emergence of the cigarette or example was likely given preference over other forms of tobacco smoking because, you can do it quicker in that aids productivity, and there's a lot of ways that we can talk about how things speed up and and how this relates to productivity and what came first clocks or whatever, but I think the important takeaway from this concept is out in the past speeding things up resulted in very tangible forms of progress, right when we talked about this in our automation episode where the introduction of mechanical automation on farms resulted in very clear economic growth created new jobs and higher paying jobs in.
[40:21] Goods and never existed before the speeding up in the past open new possibilities right but today we find ourselves in a state of slow clap like we talked about every week, and acceleration is no longer a precursor to progress it is now the requirement to prevent things from declining, it's not that we need to accelerate the economy to unlock some new technology or initiate some greatly Ford we have to accelerate just to keep people, employed and barely so and so we have this, effect on a lot of people wear as our lives beat up and as we get more stressed and as we have to spend more time being productive and less time enjoying life, we're not getting any material benefit from it so it feels like we're running in place and we're not really getting anything out of all this added stress, you know our parents might have had a one-time job that paid them well and set them up and give them a good life but now we work twice as much, or much less return we're saddled with that we have all these problems in fact here's a quote. From the article I don't know what y'all are from me.
[41:33] You're like recording a full-on episode.
[41:39] I thought that's what.
[41:40] Can you can you give us another quote.
[41:43] I see what you're saying but I would love to hear one more.
[41:47] I know I'm getting I'm like ready to talk about my articles on my Coke rap and probably not as prepared as I thought and quote and quote.
[41:59] Why do you feel like you're standing in place it was some of the. I don't want to ask you about your job cuz you might not want to talk about that but let me ask you I mean you seem pretty busy right like I know, you know sometimes we've had to reschedule the podcast me like I'm really stressed with work I'm busy at the moment do you feel like all this extra work you're doing, is adding benefit equal to the amount of stress that you're putting into it awesome.
[42:28] Red.
[42:28] Well I mean I just feel like also just with an iguana along the lines of time just out the feeling of always being behind. And it's like you know I don't talk about my job as much but I always feel like I'm not doing enough or I'm not doing enough.
[42:54] Abbott but just in general in life like building behind when it's life how can you be behind in your own body.
[43:03] Yes that's it yeah really well putting I think that's what I was trying to convey but not doing successfully that you just kind of summed up for me our current economic system has made us all question, are productivity and every moment and I have felt that I feel this all the time where I'm not doing something in the back of my mind I'm beating myself up saying I should be reading I should be researching I should be doing something productive, what am I doing with my life I'm X number of years old and compared to everyone else. This point my timeline and you know I'm going to be alone when I die when I'm you know cuz I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing and where does it come from where does all this stress come from.
[43:40] Well I was just going to say like I live in a city where you know career development is the saying and if your if you have free time and you're just sitting or watching. A movie or something it means that you don't really care about your career growth you should be volunteering or you should be out networking or you should be. You know trying to develop some more skills like.
[44:05] Nunchuck skills making skills.
[44:09] David did you ever feel this way do you ever feel this way.
[44:12] We have very different skill development programs I think. I actually feel pretty balanced not in terms of like the phone most weirdest thing that you're talking about Daniel and the like I'm only this old what am I doing.
[44:35] Typically is my own damn fault but.
[44:39] But see that's yet but you know like I was going to say something about you at least you know scheduling that but like when you work like me I work a regular 40 hours a week job so I feel stressed just knowing that I'm giving up for the hours of my time. I probably like it was 40 hours of my time that I book that i n o okay I'm stressed like you said because I booked it and I probably should cut back but when is 40 hours of my time that I'm doing because I have to do 40 hours, when realistically I only have just going back to y'all's bullshit. Episode but I only realistically have like 15 hours worth of work it's just, it really is demoralizing.
[45:20] Yeah now that makes complete sense so do you think that's why you feel more balanced David cuz you were more in control of your schedule and your time.
[45:28] It's an artificial sense of control absolutely.
[45:31] What's the same time I think you have to be balanced with that this idea about flexible time and maybe this is what you were about to get it when you said I think the illusion of control David we have to be careful because, we live in a gig economy now so many people are ostensibly and control their schedule right the Uber driver but in a way it's not really control over the time because they're still this. Necessity to do this work and this work a lot of the gig economy work comes from this acceleration the social acceleration going on to increase the rate at which prophets are extracted right if those oil rigs need to be drilled faster in the financial markets need to figure it out faster we have professionals that need to get from A to B faster so instead of a taxi let's have 24/7 on demand Uber service from your smartphone but who's going to drive those cars and I think there's a lot of people, in this flexible gig, who do not feel secure at all who are stressed out of their mind because they're trying to pay bills off of work that's intermittent that doesn't have any benefits no insurance no Health Care in a way the flexibility hurts them even more because if they miss a day if they get sick that comes right out of their income there's no protection. So I think there's a lot of things going on here.
[46:51] You said ostensibly where the thing right now are we both the same ostensibly and I think all our listeners should take a shot every time we see ostensibly.
[46:59] Oh that would have been fun if we would have.
[47:00] But also drink response.
[47:01] Yes we should do we should do an ashes ashes drunk episode.
[47:06] What would the what's the weather going to be.
[47:09] No we.
[47:10] I don't see that every episode I feel like it'd have to be something like yeah that's right David.
[47:16] Yeah you said that fucking lie.
[47:18] Like we should get drunk and then recorded up.
[47:19] Oh wait no we're doing the drinking game like this idea a lot more.
[47:24] What's your poo first we get drunk then we.
[47:27] We should.
[47:28] Y'all are going to be Wicked. We can someone definitely has indented that I hope for the sake of everyone.
[47:36] Yeah but for the sake of everyone let's move onto another another article.
[47:40] Don't put any of that in there.
[47:42] Okay so the article that I found is by guy named John posteal at a university in Australia and in this article he coined the term Freedom Technologies.
[47:56] And he refers to them as Geeks hackers online journalists Tech lawyers and other social agents, who combined technological skills with political Acumen to pursue greater internet and Democratic freedoms both globally and. I found it pretty interesting because he basically just talks about different types of protesters and how Freedom technologist are kind of like those behind the scene. A social agents that you don't see so you see the UC see the students like protesting and squares and having sit in, but these are like protect protesters who broken like online spaces and like hacker like communities to, push for a change so I'll give you guys an example and December 2009 and Manifesto in defense of fundamental digital Rights was published in opposition, to a proposed bill in Spain that was aimed at curtailing internet piracy. Other protest methods included DDOS attacks Twitter trending topics, it offline actions in December 2010 a group of tech lawyers that other freedoms technologist launch to successful online mobilization against the bill. Now renamed lay Biden cinday and honor of the u.s. Vice President Joe Biden.
[49:23] Former US vice President Joe Biden this renaming came after Wikileaks confirm that the bill was drafted under pressure, the US government okay so fast forward through all that the point is the mobilization was supported by Anonymous hack of East has that net and other hacker formation. Is a hacktivist who's named Margarita Padilla. And she says the listened a struggle brought together networks worms such as Anonymous in traditional movement. Forging monstrous alliances so anyway it's basically just talking about how what he said Freedom technologist and hacktivist also, behind the scenes and sometimes not behind the scenes to support like digital rights to protest basically just people and online communities check lawyers actors came together to kind of protest against this. And they did some attack so I don't know what DDOS attacks is but.
[50:26] Distributed denial-of-service.
[50:28] Especially when you get so many people are computers to like try to visit something that it just like overloads and shut it down. Everybody all at once to go to ashes ashta orgy the servers wood would break and. It just go away.
[50:44] We should try it just to be sure so everybody.
[50:47] If everyone tells two people and you each tell those two people to tell two people let's see if we can DDOS ashes ashes. Org.
[50:56] If we're if we're talkin about hacktivists though I just want to shout out my favorite Packer here it's somebody who goes by the name Phineas Fisher. Whose most notable pack was acting a company called the hacking team. Which as we talked about before on the show Daniel is one of these evil companies that makes spyware and then sells it to oppressive governments around the world so that they can spy on and oppressed torture and ultimately murder their citizens so Phineas Fisher.
[51:26] Got it in their head that says hey this is an evil fucked-up thing to do, and I'm going to do something about it and so they acted released all their tools are really sell their database the information of who, they have been hacking which customers they had, and I basically destroyed the company that they did come back and they are still around and doing the same exact thing unfortunately famous picture went on to write some tutorials to help other people hack they wrote a piece that explained how to skim credit cards in a way that you wouldn't damage the people who ultimately have the credit card but then you could use that money to send it to the Kurds that's what they were doing they were converting this morning that they stole to Bitcoins and making sure that they were only taking the money in ways that people would be refunded for so basically robbing from the banks can you get the Bitcoin in and donating it to the Kurds and their efforts out and wrote Java and stuff, so pretty cool person the police. They arrested him a couple times specifically the Spanish police, but as far as I know they have not been able to catch them and they're still out there hopefully doing good.
[52:37] You talk a lot about hackers here but there are a lot of people who are doing this digital behind-the-scenes work and so much of the protests and resistance movements around the world, so do you remember back in Standing Rock there were a number of hackers and it people out there who were able to establish long range, internet links to make sure the camp could stay online and keep data, live and get news information out of the camp to the rest of the world that's something they just took upon themselves to do what happened the background you never heard about it but it made so much of the press going on visible, are there lots of organizations doing work all around the country here in New York we have a group called NYC mesh which is trying to set up a second internet basically cross New York to offer free or low-cost internet specifically to Residents who cannot access it because they can't afford it so lots of government-run housing we have the the city housing agency called nycha so they've been setting up free Wi-Fi for some of these nights at housing, and it's just a concerned group of nerds basically who said hey you know we can do this thing right now.
[53:42] We're not in the streets were not visible the only thing you'll see is maybe a satellite dish that went up on top of a building but we are actively making people's lies easier in, and in all the organizations that I'm part of that are politically involved that are politically active I end up doing all the it work for them as well, and there is so much stuff that happens in the back in to make all the stuff that you see on the streets possible, and make sure everybody is safe and the organizing happens in a secure way, Anda if you are somebody who doesn't want to get into the streets who doesn't think you can get involved there are so many ways you can do these things behind the scenes not just technologically but in many ways.
[54:21] Yeah and that was kind of that was kind of the point of the article is just to talk about how what equals Freedom Technologies contribute to like the convergence of.
[54:49] Physical spaces in like digital spaces so I thought it was really interesting and I like what you what you said about your not being discouraged in about thinking about other ways to get involved in.
[55:00] Oh yeah I need protesting is is the very visible and an obvious way that that we see these types of events happening but the most important and the most necessary organizing that occurs is usually invisible at somebody meeting neighborhood association it's a city council meeting its people organizers who are actually out in the field organizing that allow everything else to happen, and you never see these people because they are so busy working their asses off to make everything that you do see possible, and again so you don't have to have it skills to do this if you can talk to somebody, and you don't even have to talk to them well but if you have enough willpower and are brave enough to go and just talk to somebody you don't know then you can be somebody who is working behind the scenes to make all this stuff possible, despite all these ideas to connect people where they need to be connected and turn let everybody know you know you're not out there alone.
[55:51] Yeah I think that's a really great point that the protesters in the streets are what is so visible and, I liked how he categorized online journalists as part of this Freedom technologist category because, Wendy's protest movements go on the very Broad and large new Cycles are very quick to frame these things and terms that you know is not too provocative not too challenging to current power structures in so just being there on the ground and sharing what's actually going on in in in a way that other people can access I feel like on the point of organizing we have a listener who is developing an app right now you can find a link to it if you go to our website hit the community Tab and it's the page what are we doing, his app is called earthrise it's still in development you can reach out to him if you want to help with that but the ideas to make it easier for people to post organizing event specifically around climate change activism in a way that kind of, put it all together in one place and it's easy to figure out what's going on in your area or help get the word out to definitely check that out if you can, and the word Freedom technologist kind of reminds me to of that or vinegar thieves Collective David that we talked about in episode 46.
[57:16] Bill of sale that Michael laufer and how they're developing do-it-yourself life-saving drugs, and then you know how could a freedom technologist play a role in that if you're not you know a PhD in biochemical stuff maybe you could help organize around getting access to those do-it-yourself drugs or something like that. Any way you want to organize us around another article David our last and final 1.
[57:41] So I guess that takes us towards the tail end of this episode the final thing we're going to be discussing today it's a little bit contentious and I really want to just pair down a small part of it, but as mentioned in the beginning of this episode we have the New Zealand Shooters Manifesto here you can read on your website if it's not banned in your country and if it is banned in your country you should read it anyway because there's no reason not to others nothing.
[58:08] That that is in it that will my insulin make you a shooter and I think the Banning of it is a problematic and maybe discuss that in the moment but. I think it's important because it raises a lot of issues that we've discussed on the show and it sort of touches on a lot of them surprisingly but it pulls a lot of different conclusions and it misses I think a lot of important things and we're not going to get into any great depth of a but what I really wanted to focus on, was this rise of ecofascism that it's specifically calls out in the shooter themselves refers to themselves repeatedly, as an Eco fascist and this is something I think we're going to see unfortunately increasingly as time goes on and the situation becomes more dire and people turn to whatever extremes they can find for some sort of solution, and there's the full Manifesto like I said it's on the side of 87 pages every quickly you can skin it I just want to quickly bring up a couple of things that they mentioned.
[59:05] And we on the show have done a lot of conversations around overpopulation and overconsumption of this is a very common theme that you'll see in the collapse Community people saying well you know the reason the world is so pocket because there's too many people, and we try to point out in that episode that we did episode 39 impacts of growth that talking only about population is just half, equation and what really is the issue is consumption yeah if that is only because population is component of total consumption, and if anything very small amounts of the population are responsible for huge amounts of the consumption causing the vast majority of the climate catastrophes that we see and I will elaborate on that point if you want it have more thoughts on that as well as the full history of some of the horrible genocides sterilizations and other things this type of thinking has enabled an episode of the good jumping point.
[59:58] Throughout this Manifesto throughout this text the author writes about concerns. People are breeding to quickly in against something that you see all the time and collapse conversations and I think it's a really slippery slope argument because when you have somebody say world is too many people and people are breeding to quickly. Immediately leads you to Solutions and of course the final solution here which is we need to kill a bunch of these people or we need to sterilize these people so they can no longer breed and that inevitably leads you to a situation like we just saw a New Zealand. Is motivation for a lot of this was in part because, he felt they were being invaded by foreigners who had much higher birth rates than the white population and in his particular strand of ecofascism it is is very specific ties in a lot with Ethel nationalism, which is an interesting type of racism where you you say it you know that I'm racist against, you know black people or in fact it would even say that they would say no Mexicans or or Nigerians or whatever and often times it gets very specific like that, it's just that I don't think they should be in my country think they should stay in their country so a country full of white people.
[1:01:15] And they say that in this writing they say oh I love foreigners I love I love people of different cultures I used to travel and they treated me as friends but it's just when they're in my country that we need to get rid of them.
[1:01:34] These murders they commit because they also talked about this as an issue of will certain races breed much more than the white race and their big fear is that white people whatever the fuck white people means and that's a definition it's always changing and it has been hundreds of different things over the past hundred years, but not to get too deep into that but whatever white people means to this author they aren't breeding and I feel so gross use as long as they aren't breathing fast enough. Compared to non-white people who are breeding faster and eventually will replace white people who will become the minority, and then as they right beside you and you never want to be a minority in a country and I guess you never want to even already because of people like this person, is happy to use power over you.
[1:02:20] Maybe that's where the fear comes from is like well if you know this is my type of people can be so terrible to these minorities well.
[1:02:27] Imagining.
[1:02:29] Exactly will this is one of the points I really want to get to you is that this person like they identified the tragic symptom which is that the people in power, it says so we should make sure we never become a norty's and just accept this as like a way of. Things out of the way things should be but he couches all this is race. Birth rate justification in the idea that so it's not because I'm racist but it's about looking out for the world. Because there's too many people consuming too much stuff so what I'm actually doing isn't about racism so they say that they are they both say that they are racist and they aren't.
[1:03:13] There's a lot of contradiction.
[1:03:16] It's so fuck. Yeah it's like so fucked up with.
[1:03:19] Yeah but it specifically that a week we can't let them breed because they're destroying the world, because we can't have 10 billion people or 50 doing a hundred people on earth eventually we have to go down we need a smaller population so so their solution isn't even that why people should have more children their solution is that, everybody else should have left but that's not fast enough so we should do something about it like they they tried to do.
[1:03:52] Bill Gates was recently very recently in the news talking about how birth rates particular places like Africa are too damn high and that they are causing problems for himself because of this and this is the exact same language the shooters using their Manifesto, to justify their murders, the fact is being parented by these these very successful philanthropists or whatever people like Bill Gates people like Steven Pinker saying you know this is a problem we need to do something about it, what did they just likely that second part open and there's like oh yeah we'll give out condoms or something which is you know it's not a bad program. Justifies these ideas in the first place win again Bill Gates by himself is consuming far more resources damaging far more the world environment. Hundreds thousands of people in Africa but he's never the problem it's somebody else, and the shipping the blame is the same exact thing the shooters doing but in this very neoliberal philanthropic language instead and that somehow makes it okay and it becomes a PR piece that people celebrate in disgust talking about his malaria or something, and so it's it's it's just really important that the only reason really didn't bring it up on this show and we really should spend more time on this I could do a whole show on there but there's just so much steps and then angles, but this concept was so important to me I just really want to discuss it.
[1:05:10] Yeah I think it's an interesting connection you made between the language from Bill Gates in the language that was in the manifesto.
[1:05:17] Yeah and I took some I read the manifesto I took some notes on I just saw how many contradictions there were in, I kind of wanted to discuss that just because it's I don't know just just to have this intellectual discussion about these contradictions in his is thinking but then I realize you can't really argue these types of ideologies, on their own terms because anytime someone wants to do something terrible they're going to justify we are irrational species that's what we do and you know one wants to think that they're the bad person. No one wants to think they're evil this person believes that what they're doing is helping the world like you said so they're going to justify it. And with something so horrible just of course the justification you know has contradiction is a paradox in itself because what, fundamentally comes down to is just racism right up the fear of the other in the fear of you know this oppression that exist in the world.
[1:06:10] On the knowledge of it in the fear that at one point you might become the other.
[1:06:14] Write it so I don't think it makes sense to like us to argue against what this person is saying in terms of like, the intellectual or logical component of this because you're not going to defeat it that way that the language will just shipped if you can point out some logical fallacy with the thinking of why we need to be no murder of minority. You know someone else will just come along with a more airtight logical reasoning for it because that's not really the point.
[1:06:41] So I guess you know what is the point of being out this manifested David maybe it's because it does conjure some of the symptoms of a broken system that we talked about on the show things like, you know I will bring out that he does mention that we have a problem with capitalism and the pursuit of profit in our economic system which ultimately destroys the environment. But their problem with that is that it it's void of some national Radiology right and so I think it's important to talk about this in the sense that. The topics that we discussed and awareness of a broken world can open the door for some people to point fingers at the wrong places. And I think that's something we have to be aware of because someone might come with the language that we're not familiar with of being anti exploitation of wanting to protect the environment, these really a twisted ideas of social relationship that we shouldn't accept if we know that's a possibility we can refine our language so that when we talk about these issues we can prepare our reputation.
[1:07:49] Well in so much as we can I guess Daniel cuz I think as you mentioned a lot of this is not necessarily A logical argument to put in emotional argument post Justified with whatever reasoning they can figure out, but then again I really want to emphasize the environmental nature of this attack and of this line of thinking that they tried to do taking this traditional, idea of genocide and coupling it with this overpopulation we have to do something else the world is destroyed, thoughts but this is not the first time this has happened and I just want to read one or two things real quick not from the Nana Festival from something else that shows that, fascism and environmentalism actually have been very close bedfellows before so bear with me just for one second. We recognize that separating Humanity from nature from the whole of Life leads to humankind's own destruction and to the death of Nations.
[1:08:43] Sounds pretty good right I'm down only through a reintegration of humanity into the whole of nature can our people be made stronger. That is the fundamental point of the biological tasks of our age human kind of loan is no longer the focus of thought or rather Life as a whole. This striving towards connectedness with the totality of life with nature itself a nature into which we are born.
[1:09:08] Pretty pretty good so far right this is the deepest meaning and the true essence of National Socialist. Environment was joined at a rate six times higher than regular people because his ideas were used to push people towards fascism the idea that we as a people are united also we are united with the Earth, and we can have all that thought, we can have that unity and we can have an environment or responsibility without the purging and genocide that happens but it is so often used to justify these actions especially when you add the Aesthetics and the ideas of fascism whip. This has happened before exactly like this. And in the end he writes in his Manifesto for the maybe the first time when the media calls somebody a fascist they will actually be a fascist because that is what I am. We need to stop and listen we need to read this and realized that we're going to see this increasingly. As the disasters get bigger as the refugees become a more numerous what was that number Daniel by 2060 the UN estimates between a billion and a billion half refugees that's 40 years from now.
[1:10:36] With a B yeah.
[1:10:38] Billion and your political systems as they exist now will not survive this.
[1:10:43] They will be thrown into some sort of extreme and extremism by itself is not necessarily a bad thing sometimes extreme situations like these refugees require extreme Solutions but Extreme often times unfortunately means, deadly Solutions. And if we don't push back against these ideas Now by talking about them by admitting that that we are pushing them in the media at this moment with people like Bill Gates. Tiny people to find these lines of thinking then we're going to have a very serious problem a few decades from now, and in the fact that countries like New Zealand are Banning people from reading this document I'm discovering this on their own I think it's just going to make it worse we can't stick her head into this and I know that the the standard answer that every state is trying to do with every bad thing that's happening right now but this is something that needs to be brought out and discussed. Torn apart.
[1:11:35] All those holes that are in it pointed and poked and pulled apart and revealed for the fragile post justification of an action that it is. The Flint chief of environmentalism coverings disgusting background of racism that motivated these attacks need to be revealed for what they are, Dennis is going to happen again and again until it's our duty to have this conversation.
[1:12:14] As we discussed so often on the show David the systems breaking our world apart. Seek to break us apart to break our relationships apart to better isolate has for various reasons. And the more we can be aware of that maybe the more we can push back against it and realize that that's not going to be the solution but that is the cause of so many of our problems and that if we truly want a better world we have to come together and open arms, love and acceptance and have a few conversations along the way. Is there anything we want to discuss about what can we do I mean we kind of covered a hodgepodge of different things diversity of topics it was kind of like a show and tell episode you know I brought my articles about your article.
[1:13:00] Incase we didn't know it's so unfair.
[1:13:02] Yeah are there any common themes y'all what y'all think we need to hit on in terms of how to go forward or is this just a lot to think about.
[1:13:11] You really set me up for failure Daniel how do we how do we tie together show that started with dolphins. And ended with mass murder. Other than the the single unifying theme even if Mariah is is the is trying to overcome the destructive tendencies that we find it is the thread of our lives right now and pushing back against somewhere we can.
[1:13:34] Here's an idea if you.
[1:13:38] That's I think that's a good point pushing back against him where we can we can.
[1:13:44] Write for instance if you pilot a shipping vessel in the North Atlantic may be considered the dolphin.
[1:13:52] Or maybe we can take a page out of episode 54 golden age and hoist our sails and hit the sea.
[1:14:02] The freedom technology speaks in hackers online journalist other as David mentioned behind the scenes Community organizers who are really pushing for internet freedom and so forth.
[1:14:15] Yeah no doubt take out that app.
[1:14:18] And use it as an excuse to get involved there's so many people out there doing so much good work and then we talked about so many bad things on this episode but it's not hard for you to find a little bit of good out there and do some good yourself. You can find more information about all these articles the Articles themselves some ancillary information and a full transcript of this episode on our website at ashes ashes. Org.
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[1:15:25] Until next week.
[1:15:27] This is ashes ashes but that was it that was an episode.
[1:15:33] MGI cannot coexist.