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Chapters

  • 06:22 Bernie Krause
  • 08:56 Components of a Soundscape
  • 11:29 Niche Hypothesis
  • 13:02 What are ways animals vocalize to survive?
  • 14:52 The sound of habitat destruction
  • 24:41 Beauty of marine environments
  • 29:21 Cultural pathology and inattention
  • 30:52 Difference between organized and chaotic sound
  • 48:50 Loudness wars against our health
  • 52:58 Human health consequences of sound
  • 58:55 Animal health consequences of sound
  • 1:08:08 Going forward

(Sorry this transcript sucks, we'll fix it as soon as we can!)


David Torcivia:

[0:00] I'm David Torcivia.

Daniel Forkner:

[0:02] Daniel Forkner.

David Torcivia:

[0:03] And this is Ashes Ashes, a show about systemic issues, cracks in civilization, collapse of the environment, and if we're unlucky, the end of the world.

Daniel Forkner:

[0:13] But if we learn from all of this, maybe we can stop that. The world might be broken, but it doesn't have to be.

[0:25] David we're listening to my backyard as you can see I live in a pristine natural Wonderland.

David Torcivia:

[0:33] It sounds really beautiful day now I'm sort of jealous because my backyard is filled with car alarm.

Daniel Forkner:

[0:38] Yes well.

David Torcivia:

[0:40] Doesn't sound like you're just so natural either.

Daniel Forkner:

[0:44] Yeah that was the condenser turning on with the AC at the house that I live in.

David Torcivia:

[0:52] Well it should be no surprise to either one of us that it's really difficult to find a place with untainted natural sound.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:00] Yeah that's right David in fact the u.s. National Park Service they monitor sound levels at over 600 places in the United States. And over the past decade not a single one of these has been unaffected by the noise introduced by human activity.

David Torcivia:

[1:18] You're as human we are really good at building things, we can start the whole civilization like we look we made it all this electricity mechanical things got card got plane that flies around the world through the kind of amazing but I think all of this has this side effect, it's so much we forgotten is there in the first place, and that of course is the noise that we created in this might be one of our largest legacies actually in the world right now, what is almost nowhere on this planet that has not been touched by the sounds of civilization and that is the topic that will be exploring in today's episode.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:54] It is really quite remarkable, how much sound we put into the world going back to the US National Park Service they expect noise pollution in the United States, the double every 30 years and some people estimate that there are only 10 location in the entire country where you can experience that pristine. Natural environment without the introduction of human sound except. Only for 15 minutes before eventually you're going to hear a plane fly overhead or a truck go by or something. And the Department of Transportation as reported that 97% of the entire population lives among man-made noise.

David Torcivia:

[2:37] Daniel before we begin anything in this episode, maybe as always we need to take just a quick step back and ask ourselves what we know what exactly is the sounds all around us this thing that we call the soundscape. When we think of a place right now that you've been like a famous tourist location of childhood memory that you were you stick to your memory of this location is something is very visual they're these landmarks that you see you can visualize maybe it's the Acropolis maybe it's the Colosseum or maybe just a field nearby your childhood home. You can look at it and you can think of oh yeah they were these beautiful Roxy or maybe the sun was setting it was a beautiful blue day with white fluffy clouds near and in your memory of this space is likely a very visual one. What is the same way that we have these visual landmarks associated with any one place they're very strong individual and unique soundscapes associated with everywhere as well, and he said things that might be the natural world that is the wind or the rain or the Earth itself the animals that live there and then that man-made sounds associated with it, so if I walk down my street outside I know some places that the Subway's can be very loud or hear my apartment I live close to the hospital so I can often times hear ambulances running by, these towns are associated with individual places just as strongly as there's literally 9 minutes going by right now hang on one second.

[4:03] Okay that the address is finally passed, but these oral soundscapes are just as important to identifying a space as any sort of visual or olfactory kiwiz as well.

Daniel Forkner:

[4:15] Right I mean in the same way that you have a unique voice David from mine, even if we were to seeing the same note at the same frequency we still have different voices everywhere we go in the world the sound that makes up a place is totally unique and it varies from day to day, morning evening spring versus fall. And so why does your voice sound different from mine David or why is it that when I play a note on the piano it sounds different from the same note played on a guitar sound has so many different characteristics you have a frequency which is, how many times the wave cycles per second. Which our brains and interprets as pitch it has the the volume right how many decibels is how loud it is sound hasn't acoustic envelope, which defines how it acts overtime of course it has a Tambour not Timbre describes it's very unique, sound that differentiates it from everything else and what makes your voice unique David is not just that main frequency that kind of defines the, pitch as we hear it but there's all these other waves in between the makeup overtones that added up together, create a unique sound.

[5:31] NRA our environment is the same way we've got running Rivers we've got wind we have all the animals that are vocalizing and trying to be heard all of this adds up, into a very unique sound and as you'd expect David, a lot of the sounds kids around the world now incorporate sounds from our human activity unsurprisingly it's impacting the way the natural components exist, the many cases because of our introduction of sound those natural soundscapes Fall Apart.

David Torcivia:

[6:04] These are really important concept that we need to understand in the beginning of today's episode in order to dive in with some of the effects of the soundscapes that we built today or in our civilization and the health effects it has an all about that was the soundscapes that are being lost and changed through a variety of influences much of them human and to help us explore this topic. Is dr. Bernie Krause who is one of the pioneers of soundscape ecology.

Daniel Forkner:

[6:30] It's an honor and a privilege to have Bernie Krause on the show he is a musician and author and Founding Father of the science of soundscape ecology, as a musician he helped Pioneer Electronic Music in the 60s he introduced the synthesizer to countless bands and musicians and adapted the scent for film scores and other projects. It was in the late 60s though that he discovered the joy of listening to and recording wild natural soundscape. And that launched him into the field of soundscape ecology through his work recording preserving and analyzing the sound of natural soundscapes Bernie Krause as help to reveal new understandings of the natural world, and introduce new words and Concepts into the Lexicon. Learn more about his work you might start with his 2013 talk on the Ted Global stage visit his website at Wild sanctuary.com and read one of his many books on the subject. Without further Ado years Bernie Krause.

Bernie Krause:

[7:30] Hello hold on a second here we go yes hello.

Daniel Forkner:

[7:34] I would like to just start out by saying that for both of us reading about your work and reading from your books has really opened an entirely new world for us and your work has had a transformative effect on me personally, but when I walked out to a park recently and David did something similar. Put headphones on and I listen to the sounds of nature through that undiscriminating ear the microphone and that was the moment I felt like I caught a glimpse of the entirely new reality that I have been blind to my whole life, this is an experience that kind of launched you down your path in career of soundscape ecology is that right.

Bernie Krause:

[8:11] That's exactly right but I started off as a professional musician and at one point when I was doing an album for Warner Brothers with my Lake music partner Paul beaver. The title of the album was in a wild sanctuary and it was the first album ever on the theme of ecology. So Paul wouldn't have anything to do with natural World experience or traveling outside so we left that task to me. When I went out to this just park I guess it is and turned on the recorder which was the first time that stereo recorders were available by the way there portable recorders outside. The Experience just changed my life and I just said you know what am I doing in music I got to do more of this it just make me feel good.

Daniel Forkner:

[8:56] What could you describe for us what the three main components of a soundscape are.

Bernie Krause:

[9:01] Wilshire the soundscape is a concept developed by Canadian composer naturalist by the name of Marie Schaefer. In shape for a 1977 Road a great book called tuning of the world to use the first one to describe the soundscape in it and by that he meant all of the sound that reaches the human ear. When working in the field I wanted to know a little bit more about the sources of sound what were the main sources of that soundscape, and I began to think about that in the late 90s I came up with the first concept of by off any meaning, the collective sound that all organisms make any given habitat one moment, and that is called the by off any but then working a little bit later couple years later on a national park soundscape program.

[9:51] I was working with a fellow by the name is Stewart gauge from he's Emeritus from Michigan State University Professor there. And he said you know we ought to come up with some other definitions of sources of the soundscape and he and I are in a paper that was recently published. Came up with the idea of the geofanny. Or the first sounds that were heard on earth like the sounds of water and rain and movement of the earth and the GF and he was around no for several billion years before animals appeared and valve. And then finally so we have ji apne by off any which of the first two natural sounds then we have anthropophagy. Meaning human sound and by human sound we divided anthropophagy into actually two subgroups. One is a controlled sound like Music Theater in and language. The other is chaotic sound that we refer to as noise as its really established by. Electromechanical devices that we can't seem to do without and they introduced this blanket of noise in our lives that's just incredible.

[11:04] Do we have the three terms that she often e. First sounds on Earth by apne when organisms evolved and now we have anthropophaga, Off Lease Only been around really true couple of million years but it's had the most profound effect on the soundscape of the natural world the I often e because of the noise incredible amount of noise we create.

Daniel Forkner:

[11:29] Well I'm fascinated by the way you describe the BIOS Annie and how complex, Dynamic it is and how species have learned to adapt their voices to their environment and find particular niches where their voices can be heard can you describe what the nice hypothesis is that you discovered and how you came about discovering it.

Bernie Krause:

[11:49] Denise hypothesis just expresses. The beauty of the buy off Annie and it points to the fact that all of these types of organisms all of these species. Find acoustic turf or bandwidth. Within the frequency spectrum the vocalize and they find either frequency spectrum or temporal niches and so like for instance the frogs will vocalize at 1 frequency. The insects will vocalize it another birds mammals all find their own niche. That is occupied only by those creatures and when habitat is very healthy when you look at the niches as a spectrogram of graphic illustration of sound. It looks just like a musical score like just like you would find if you were listening to Beethoven's 5th. All of the strings are in one Niche the bases are in another the horns are in another the percussion and another and it's just like just like instruments in an orchestra. And by the way that is how we learn to compose by the ways in which we observed animals. Vocalizing in relationship to one another.

Daniel Forkner:

[13:03] Yeah that's right I think it's really important for us to come back to that the cultural influences by off news that had on us. The first I think one of the lessons that is so important about this discover you to scratch yours that the vocalization of species in the way they discriminate their voices it's really important for their function in their survival, give me four examples some frogs will vocalize together as a community, and the way their voices playoff each other forms a kind of protective bubble such that it becomes impossible for pray to isolate any one individual. What are some other ways animals vocalize to survive and thrive.

Bernie Krause:

[13:41] Well they each have their own reason for vocalizing and if if if their survival is a result of, behavior that that is vocalization and it's really important for them to find clear channels of communication does their voices aren't mess. And when it comes to chorus thing I mean there is some animals that chorus like insect for instance you'll hear crickets at night. And what they do is after. Of time you'll you'll hear the chirping all get into sink so that all the Crickets are chirping at the same Rhythm I takes a while for that to happen after Sundown because different parts of the. Habitat are different temperatures in and they're tripping the street relation that they do is temperature dependent. So it takes a while for all of that Habitat to equalize to the same temperature at which point all the Crickets are in sync. And it's really way cool to see how that happens and they do that again coursing because it's a protective measure. There are other creatures that don't do coercing or have to do that and if vocalisations mean other things within the habitat.

David Torcivia:

[14:53] So these vocalisations in the sounds that all these animals make are important for their survival for a number of reasons but at the same time a lot of your research is focused on the how do you biopsy needs are being threatened and damaged and large part by human options, you have this really beautiful example about selective logging that I know you've given several talks and interviews and written about it length if you can explain that just briefly.

Bernie Krause:

[15:17] Well it's an example that was taken from a place in the Sierra Nevada mountains just about three and a half hour drive east of San Francisco. And Lincoln metal is place that we recorded I recorded there for many years during the 1980s in the 1988. Logging Company came through and try to convince local residents. It should be no impact from selective logging which was a new message that they were trying to convince people would have no impact environmental impact. And so the community read and said fine by your selective logging here. And they did in 1988 in June of 1988 I went there to record just before the their operation. And a year later I came back after they did The Selective logging and you hear the clear result even though they took out only a tree here and there it completely changed.

[16:12] The characters that habitats such that I mean it may not a sticker tree may not look out of place to up our eyes because we're not trying to really pay attention to that but to the critters that live there. Dependent on the Integrity of that habitat. It was devastating and you can hear it in its Voice or the biopsy any because it completely changed I've been back 15 or 16 times since to record the same place. And on the biopsy has not yet returned anything like its normal condition. And what we found was we found something interesting when we walked back into the forest some 200 yards away from the meadow where you had a sight line of the trees. Logging Company actually clear cut most of the territory that was beyond the sight line of what most humans could see from the road and they do that a lot. Two things that happen for me is I was flying back from Germany and I was flying from Frankfurt on a plane, there is nobody in first class they move me up a First-Class US before all this stuff happened it was a 747 and I was the only one there so the pilots came out at one point and said you know why. Inflight that sit with us so I want up the flight that when you could still do that. And I was sitting in the jumpseat there and as we Flew Over the Northwest Territories in Canada and then back down at to Alberta and British Columbia.

[17:41] And you can see all along the road you could see the there was a line of trees that was maybe 200 m in off the road and then just beyond that everything was clear cut flat from miles miles. And so it gives the illusion to the people from the road that are driving by that there's a big Force there. You only have to walk a couple hundred yards and you'll see you know how devastating it really is without a lot of damage and we have to figure out a way to deal with that.

Daniel Forkner:

[18:13] And you lamented the fact that over half of all the recordings you've made since 1968 can no longer be found in nature those habitats are now silent because of the ways we've altered the environment. And you've recorded examples of habitats bursting with species vocalization and then a plane flies overhead and the ability for species to vocalize immediately breaks down, it takes a long time to recover. I'm curious did it surprise you when you were first studying this how sensitive and how vulnerable biopsies are to the sound that we're introducing.

Bernie Krause:

[18:46] But all of this information is new. Nobody never looked at it that way before and so it was always a surprise to me and it was always wonderful to be out in the field, and it just turn on the recorder because every time I did I learn something new all of these observations the one that you're talking about now the effect of human noise on a populations of of animals, especially the coursing ones like frogs and insect really has an impact and when their voices are mask. And their survival depends on on their voices it has an impact like the frogs for instance when a jet plane flew over at Mono Lake in California, when the jet plane flew over the frogs lost their synchronicity. And we watched under a full moon is as you know a couple of coyotes came into the field and and a great horned owl some foxes they picked off you know the number of frogs, until we got back in sync it took fully 45 minutes before they were able to get their synchronicity.

Daniel Forkner:

[19:49] Will Bernie speaking about how all this is new is seems that the academic literature is just barely catching up to the implications of the impact we're having on by often he's, I want to read you a quote from an academic study published in May of this year that looked at the relationship between human sound, and the interactions of lady beetles aphids and plants, quote among the least studied aspects of global change are the echo logical effects of anthropogenic sound. Anthropogenic sound is increasingly recognized as a major component of global change in both urban and rural environment but its consequences for species and their interactions remain relatively unknown, studies that have evaluated interspecific effects of antibiotics sound largely focused on vertebrates such as bats birds and frogs almost nothing is known about the effects of sound pollution on some of the most abundant animals, insects into quote so two part question Bernie. You started this work in the sixties and when you first made the connection that buy often is our complex and interrelated soundscapes, your academic supervisors did not immediately take it seriously, why do you think the research has been so behind in this area and second since you have been studying these transfer so long what do you think are some of the biggest consequences of our sound impacts on insects since there's not a lot of research on this.

Bernie Krause:

[21:15] Well there's much more research on this in Europe. Not a lot here in the United States for some reason or other because some models that were here in the United States were, species specific model in other words you take a creature out of context you record it with a parabolic dish at the isolated from all the others. And there are huge collection of collections like at Cornell University and and the British library of wildlife sounds for instance, which are predicated on the model of no we can understand the natural world if we pull it apart deconstructed, but the problem is that when you do them like I send my TED talk it's a little like trying to understand the magnificence of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony by extracting the sound of a single violin player out of the context of the artist rendering just that one part that's what we've been doing, and so when I first began to show colleagues this work, in the form of Spectre Graham because they hadn't used spectrograms in that way they were very suspicious of it and really didn't understand it, find Lisa spectrograms became more detail in your able to see all of the imagery that represent at the sounds game.

[22:28] They began to realize that maybe there was something there but again most of this work and all of the stuff that I'm doing right now all of the support that I get is from France and Germany, not not here in the United States we we still can't get traction on this archived in the value of it here in the United States. Are all these institutions Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford University of California Berkeley University of Michigan, all of these institutions have Environmental Studies program. Absolutely none of them have a dedicated program to soundscape ecology that's not true in Europe it's beginning to happen in Europe. But it's not happening here.

Daniel Forkner:

[23:08] But I think it was in Europe to that big study that came out just a year or two ago showing the dramatic Decline and insect populations generally the just kind of shocked the world.

Bernie Krause:

[23:19] 70% of the insect population in different parts of Germany have knobs. And you know we're sitting here right now having this discussion a year ago exactly a year ago my wife and I were victims of the California fire we lost everything in the fire spirit. We lost our home we lost our cats I lost all of my original analog recording. All of my equipment I had a wire recorder that went back to 1899. Yeah I mean we had some really nice stuff everything that we had is lost and I can tell you, without hesitation is that the night that we escaped and drove through that wall of Fire, we looked at the malevolence of global warming let me tell you it's its impact is felt all over the place and only interested in fireman's book Marine environments as well. Because of ocean warming and acidification and pollution coral reefs are dying at an alarming rate. And you know even what they're selling now in Australia for the Great Barrier Reef is come and see it because it's going to be gone in a couple of years. So everybody's rushing to see the last bits of the Great Barrier Reef are commercializing its demise which is hideous to me.

Daniel Forkner:

[24:42] And you of course recorded So Many beautiful soundscapes of marine environments and I think it was surprised many people to know how much sound is being vocalizing environments like or Reason, I mean I was fascinated just by the way describe how every place like. Every Beach just from the GIF and he has a very unique sound signature and you know related to climate change when we spill oil in the Gulf that has a dramatic impact on the way the animals vocalize, because they have adapted themselves to a very unique and a very specific sound signature, and in relation to each other and just a smallest amount of changes of course that's not small that's pretty dramatic impact their ability to survive.

Bernie Krause:

[25:22] Absolutely and it takes them it takes them a very long time to orient themselves to another habitat or another environmental situation, and so you know we're losing things in an alarming rate and I don't know quite how to even deal with it.

David Torcivia:

[25:39] Yeah that's something that I know we both struggle with all the time then when we talked about this these questions all the time that's a lot of what the show is about.

Bernie Krause:

[25:48] Enta in probably one of the most important aspects of the show she might be. The ways in which the administration right now is denying not only climate science but science in general.

David Torcivia:

[26:00] Yeah absolutely.

Bernie Krause:

[26:02] I can tell you this right now that a year ago March when I saw this happening and I heard from my colleagues NASA and also the EPA or getting all of their data offshore. I made a copy of my archived complete copy of it, and got it offshore to France it to a safe house in France where I thought it would remain, you know I'm compromised because I felt that strongly about the fact of what was happening here and it's really kind of like the Dark Ages, so incredible.

David Torcivia:

[26:34] Yeah everyone is worried about their grandson the research and access to satellite information and stuff it's it's a rough time in a lots of science at the moment. But I expand on the idea that animals are impacted when these negative ways by the, cacophony that occurs with our anthropogenic effects on these balconies, I mean humans themselves if we're animals to we're not that far removed from these creatures that are all around us, and the noise that we've created is, a detriment to our health and the chaotic sounds at Kerr is specially in the city I mean I'm in New York right now has a very specific health effects that were just starting to catch on to so I was wondering if you can maybe speak on to any of that.

Bernie Krause:

[27:19] Yeah sure I'm writing about that right now in a new book called The Book of sound which will be out at the end of next year and you know, until very recently we were part of the by optional, and until we emerge you know at the end of the last ice age and begin to focus our attention on agriculture and so on and in and larger communities, the most recent noise issue came about as a result of the Industrial Revolution about 250 years ago. That's weird really exploded we're looking at things right now we're I mean again it's an issue that the United States doesn't deal with very well, because until 1982 we have as an office within the EPA the office of noise abatement. And when Reagan came into office he wanted to ensure that a lot of these agencies would be defunded because he didn't like the regulation. So James Watt became Secretary of the Interior, and he defended the office of noise abatement which was created to help America quiet down, and to become more conscious of the effects of noise that we're having terrible health effects on lots of people quickly and noisy cities like New York Chicago Detroit so on.

[28:44] Well when what was asked why he did that his answer was very Illuminating I think he said noise is our. And the noise your we are as Americans the more powerful we appear to be two other.

Daniel Forkner:

[28:59] That sounds like a cultural pathology to me.

Bernie Krause:

[29:04] Well you know the lake Paul Sheppard wrote this wonderful book called The Others how animals made us human. I remarked at one point you said you know the further we draw away from the natural world the more pathological we become as a culture if you don't believe that just watch the news at night.

Daniel Forkner:

[29:22] Well speaking of Paul Sheppard I want to read a quote from his book nature and Madness where he says quote, quality of attention means cultural and habitual differences in the style of day-to-day hearing seeing smelling tasting and touching the surroundings. And quote and so I wonder about our in attention to the natural world, how big of an impact is that having just on our day-to-day relationship to the world in ways that we don't even realize and could be contributing to some of these chronic illnesses and pathologies Rising around the world that we don't understand.

Bernie Krause:

[29:55] Well if you want to see that just walk into a restaurant where families are gathered at the table and every single person has a has a cell phone or smartphone and their faces are buried in their smartphone the distractions, of our electromechanical world are like infamous. And again the further we draw away from that from this natural world phenomenon. More ethological we become and we are meeting those criteria every single day. I mean it's really I think it's nuts and I have to say that again the only work that's being done in this field right now it's with the World Health Organization in Europe. And they've done the major studies and the only support that we're getting for this work in the Arts and Sciences is in your not here. They're 20 years ahead of us.

Daniel Forkner:

[30:53] Right I want to ask you about some of the research that the who supporting because we're seeing a lot of reports as you've both mentioned that this man made sound like airplanes in traffic, is having a big impact on our health in a lot of reports seem to point towards a 55 decibel threshold of this noise, I'm sure there are a ton of natural habitats in by often he's out in the world that exceed 55 disciples so I'm curious that that can't be the whole story right, there must be a significant difference between the way listening to a natural habitat versus you note the sound of cars going by has on our health, can you tell us what that difference might be.

Bernie Krause:

[31:32] That's a great question with my often use I recorded by often he's as high as 80 or 85 DB which is pretty loud and what's interesting about those who stand a healthy habitat if I often used to organize sound, so the difference between organized sound and answer pastini is answer papa needs up the part of anthroposophy that is noise is sound it's chaotic and it has no information in it, so it's very distracting and that component itself is unhealthy to us because our minds can't grasp what the sound means. It's and it's all encompassing around us now, so the difference when you go into a habitat I mean even if you going to a habitat where the sound is 80 or 85 DB and you're sleeping you're trying to sleep in a hammock at night on the jungle somewhere it turns out to be very relaxing, and for me with this terrible case of ADHD that I've had all my life the only thing that that helps stem that the anxiety that results from that attention deficit disorder, the only thing that helps is natural sound and when it's especially organized it helps even more. And it's it's amazing how that works for me you know I was heavy into medication for a very long time and then in 1968 I found going to begin to work in the fields and more than I began to feel the fear I felt.

[33:01] You sure not everybody can get out into the field and hear this stuff, but you can get these recordings and listen to them in a quiet space in your own home, if if you have the ability to turn off all the other noise in your life like your smartphone and your television and all the rest of the stuff that's so does rap.

Daniel Forkner:

[33:21] I want to come back to something that you mentioned earlier about our connection with nature and music, and in your book The Great animal Orchestra you tell us in part how Human music and dance and even our own language came from the sounds that natural soundscapes gave us, and you show me some really powerful examples of that like the ways spectrograms of Human music compared to soundscapes. A 40000 year old bone flute which place of pentatonic scale and the potoo bird that vocalizes a very bluesy Melody, you've also describes how the music of Johann Sebastian Bach is reminiscent of CounterPoint and Fugal elements hurt and nature and that the structure of humpback whale songs is as complex and intricate as our own music. Can you tell us a little bit about our musical roots and cultural roots that are found in these by Anthony's in geography.

Bernie Krause:

[34:13] Well you're not going to hear our roots in any of the music that we can close now. That said I've just composed to Symphony with Richard Blackford which was commissioned by the BBC Symphony Orchestra called the Great animal Orchestra Symphony for orchestra and wild soundscapes which is a 70 piece Orchestra led by. Natural sounds which is, pretty cool and we also did a ballet called by off any which uses all natural sounds to which the Alonzo King lines ballet choreographed the piece and it was performed by the way earlier this summer in Central Park so there you have it, but our music in general, has no relationship to the Natural World Experience now the music of people who live closely connected to the Natural World however like the bayaka live in the Central African Republic, or the calla lily live in Papua New Guinea but he parole who lives in the Amazon basin all of these groups. Use the natural soundscape as a karaoke Orchestra to which they perform, is it there music it's a backup group for their performances of Music and Dance.

[35:25] They use the sounds of the natural world is an analgesic they go there when they want to heal in the sounds not only help them Orient themselves spiritually but also. Medicinally they provide the same kinds of benefits is herbs do in the forest so there's a lot of connection here.

Daniel Forkner:

[35:44] Speaking about the Baka and you've written about how some of their cultural connections with nature work deteriorated when the modern world of Market suddenly took an interest in them. And one thing to the subject struck me as profound as is how you write about, early institutions of our society which actively suppressed music and dance that they saw his being too wild and I'm curious, we tend to think that losing our connection to Nature is just the kind of, unintentional side effect of civilization but this seems to suggest to me that perhaps our institutions might be actively suppressing our connections with nature as part of their foundations, and I'm wondering if maybe the ways in which were living should be questioned in a way they can get us closer to the natural world.

Bernie Krause:

[36:30] Well I certainly suggest looking at that for instance in religion one of the most important aspects of, Church architecture in in the 11th 12th 13th century West abilities huge stone walls to shut out the influence of the natural world, antique enclosed and then Compass only our own voices before reflected back on ourselves, because of the big echoey riverburn dolls of those building and that was the only thing because those sounds that humans sounds, considered to be the sounds of the Divine I'd argue, the only Divinity that's ever struck me as being important is being in a rainforest in in hearing. The sounds of the natural world that's me that's that's my church that's my synagogue that's my mosque. And if I want to hear the voice of the Divine that's where I go.

Daniel Forkner:

[37:26] Burning House of all the recordings you've made since the 60s can no longer be found in nature but have you been able to capture examples of restoration is there hope that we can bring these soundscapes back before it's too late.

Bernie Krause:

[37:41] I don't know. The world is changing so radically and so fast that we'd even given up on the idea of Baseline studies because you record a baseline today and it's going to be changed than 6 hours I really don't know, I have seen examples of reforestation in places like Costa Rica. It has been fairly successful from a vegetation perspective but I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the birds come back or the insects come back. And repopulate that area but then. I'm only 80 years old I haven't been around long enough to be able to see what's happening and I hope is that I can live another couple hundred years and I'll let you know.

Daniel Forkner:

[38:25] We hope to find out and Bernie Krause thank you so much for joining us.

[38:38] If there's one thing that kind of stuck out to me.

David Torcivia:

[38:42] Just one Daniel.

Daniel Forkner:

[38:43] I guess not just one but there's something I've been kind of mulling around in my brain about this topic which is you know you see articles and you can you hear people talk about the natural world in in terms of how it benefits us. So if you're feeling stressed no maybe you've been in the city too long go to the forest it'll restore you it will give you some benefits you know you'll you'll feel relaxed, you'll be able to come back into the City and and be efficient again be productive again you just need that you know kind of reset with the natural world. And what stands out to me now is that. We when we're talking about connecting with the natural world we're talking about as if we're adding something to our lives like we have a normal life and we're adding some benefit on top of it when in reality, we're returning to something that is more normal we've become normalized to the fact. Living in industrial societies has taken something from us is taken a connection to the natural world and that is actively harming.

David Torcivia:

[39:47] Infection of this is almost something that has become sort of a medical condition when you're specifically talking about sound and the fact that we're surrounded so much by all this noise and the lack of this natural beautiful biodiversity in a soundscape that that is associated with that is we've developed this thing called learn deafness where were constantly tuning out all this noise around us animation actually that much harder to hear and enjoy is Beautiful by Anthony when we're back in nature and this is a A coping mechanism that we've developed in order to try and survive in this chaotic loud constantly changing noisy cacophonous world, but of course it still has mini stress effects on his which is something we'll get on to it later on this episode.

Daniel Forkner:

[40:28] We know speaking about having the tune out this cacophony of noise you know we didn't get to discuss this with Bernie but he's brought up in the past, I'll just because we get used to something consciously doesn't mean that the effect is having on her body doesn't linger and in fact the fact that we're getting used to something like the sound of traffic noise maybe a sign that our brains are working overtime, is he one of the benefits of going out into nature with headphones and a microphone is the fact that the microphone does not do this discrimination, we are brains as we adapt to our world it starts figuring out what to filter and what to emphasize, and that takes energy we're walking down a sidewalk in all this traffic noise is going on around us and we're trying to talk to the person next to us our brain has to employ all these systems to figure out, of all the sound coming into our ears what does it need to suppress so that it can hear the important part which is the person you're speaking to, not takes a toll on our body.

David Torcivia:

[41:29] When we were recording this episode Daniel and we were going out and actually recording the are very amateur field recordings me around my city you around you or your neighborhood, and like you mentioned several times the actual Act of pressing record on this non-discriminating microphone was really eye-opening and for me is changed how I've been listening for the past couple weeks because of this, when you're sitting there and can you think you know a space right and it's Works going to try this right here I mean imagine standing on the side of the road it's evening.

[41:59] You have this very likely like we talked about before mental image of what this looks like and also what this sounds like maybe this crickets in the background there's an occasional cars passing and it does about what you brain pays attention to. But so we're going to play click here and this is a recording that we've made out of this and I want you to really dig in. Listen to this hard and now that your brain isn't filtering out this sort of background noise you going to start to notice lots of little details and and even the individual cars passing by you can tell how big they are you can tell details about them just from hearing them use the things you normally wouldn't pay attention to, but now that it's brought front and center in your brain is able to actually just listen instead of having to shove it out in the background is useless noise you can really begin to appreciate the soundscape and see just how much information you can pull out of this thing that we normally throw away is garbage.

Daniel Forkner:

[43:16] Yeah that's good David you know I did something similar as well as when we were researching this topic I went into the park. In my neighborhood we have a nice little park there was some walking trails and I took the microphone and my headphones, this is the first time I did it it's what I referenced when we were talking to Bernie Krause and when I press play on the microphone it really blew my mind I was hearing things I had never heard before one of the things that stuck out to me is that at one point during the recording it sounded like it was raining. Or if it wasn't so I looked up and I noticed that the wind was very gently blowing through the tops of the trees it was causing all these leaves to fall, and the microphone was picking this up all these hundreds and hundreds of leaves knocking into each other another branches created the sound like rain. Of course that's a big part of that natural soundscape that we just kind of to now. And then I noticed a plane go overhead so let's play the clip from my Park you can hear the nature sounds and pretty soon you're going to hear a plane go over head, and consider how loud it is compared to everything else is going on.

[44:39] Is that playing super loud and what it means is that just because we don't always notice it because we are filtering these sounds out. The species within an environment it has a dramatic impact on them is Bernie Krause elaborated, the species within a habitat they have adapted their voices to fit a certain niche, it can either be a frequency nice or they have a deep voice or they're looking for a space within their environment where their voice can be heard so that it doesn't run into something else and at the same time they're also trying to find end portal niches, meaning when one bird is singing another bird might wait and then seeing what's the other one finishes, or maybe an insect will vocalize in triplet patterns so there's just Things From Another insect which, localizes in some other pattern so everyone's adapting their voice to this very particular nice but then something like a plane flies overhead and those very low frequency Rumblings to strip straight through the entire habitats, it disrupts all these very delicate balances and all the sudden now those birds what am I taking a long time to recover they might not know what to do they might be waiting to see how they can interject their voice again and be heard, and just like those frogs that can now be picked off by Predators is affect their ability to function and survive. That's for example they use sound as we know to like catch insects in the other things but they also use echolocation to identify which plants to pollinate.

[46:09] So disrupting their patterns would also impact the pollination of, last piece is all around us which as we've discussed about in her episode Irreplaceable is a huge crisis going on around the world right now, and of course the introduction of anthropogenic sounds also has an impact on the stress levels of animals but later on in this episode some specific things that have been identified in academic papers.

[46:33] Animals but why don't we talk a bit about how this noise pollution impact human health because as Bernie Krause pointed out that who has declared noise pollution a Health crisis second only to air pollution. Very serious one as we've discussed in our episode 38 dead air but how can noise be such a dramatic Health crisis that the WHL is concerned about how is that possible.

David Torcivia:

[47:02] Daniel instead of trying to explain exactly why and how this might be the case looks instead taking advantage of this wonderful medium that we have and boy actually a clip submitted to us from one of our listeners of what it's like to live right next to a busy highway.

[47:32] Yeah it's easy to see how that could get annoying but maybe we can turn up the volume even little bit more this is a clip I recorded here in New York in Times Square.

Daniel Forkner:

[47:54] David that's why when I visit New York I don't go to Times Square because that's that sounds awful.

David Torcivia:

[47:59] Nobody go to Times Square in New York just to skip Time Square.

Daniel Forkner:

[48:04] We know it's interesting you mentioned earlier how listening to the microphone allows you to pick up things that we've learned to train out. Of our hearing and I guess because it was on my mind as I was walking to my office today to do this interview with Bernie Krause and do this recording with you, sound was on my mind and so as I was walking to my office I noticed all the traffic sound, that my building is like 50 feet from so I ran and got my mic and recorded that for you so here's a recording of the traffic that's going by my office building and for future reference this is about 77.

David Torcivia:

[48:50] Okay. I think we play these loudness Wars a long enough here and I'm going to spare our listeners ears from anything more but we can quickly see how living in this world, the chaos that occurs in the random nature of all these vehicles driving by the sirens two different people making noises it's very clearly chaotic and stressful. And we can understand from their house especially after Bernice explanations of the synchronicity that occurs in a natural and end healthy ecosystem in the soundscapes that this noise is that we built through our civilization, could have negative health effects on Alba.

Daniel Forkner:

[49:27] Right foot let's get into the facts like I said that traffic going by my office building was registering 77 decibels from where I was standing. The World Health Organization recommends, noise levels below 30 decibels for communities in warns the exceeding 55 decibels is dangerous to human health, unfortunately according to the who 40% of people in Europe are in communities with noise above 55 decibels in 20% above 65.

David Torcivia:

[49:57] Daniel decibels smashables nobody actually knows what those numbers mean so maybe we should give just a real quick Baseline of exactly what is 55 decibels.

[50:10] 55 decibel light traffic.

Daniel Forkner:

[50:13] The age of circle will everything a circle reasoning from now on. Everything is self-reference that's actually one of the problems though David that in one of the books that I was reading that Bernie Crossroad he talks about it in this is what he kind of alluded to in the interview which is, we don't have music nowadays that really reflects the natural world because it's all self-referential right it used to be that we would look to the natural world, and then we adopt our music and our dance to that and you keep referencing that but now we've created some music and things outside of that, it's a when people want to create new music a lot of people look to what is already created they reference that and create new music so we really got in the way from the natural influences on on culture.

David Torcivia:

[51:01] Bernie just hates remixes we have to cut that out we love you Bernie your hero.

[51:07] Okay so here's a chart of decibel sound system quickly give you an idea so this is a logarithmic scale so small increase can be dramatic volume or pussy volume increases, and just to set a baseline a a very quiet sound so whisper is something like 25 decibels.

[51:25] I really quiet night in the suburbs is about 4055 Rush Hold that we talked about that's like standing right next to an old kind of loud refrigerator right when it turns on, it's annoying it's a background noise but it's enough that we can ignore it if we need to, have you start getting above that we start getting to be tired volume so 6265 is like a loud business office or maybe like a normal conversation from 3 feet away so you can see how that over prolong. It's hard to get annoying and stressful, let's jump up to 75 decibels now so this is what Daniel you were talking about right outside your office building that's the same volume as a loud vacuum cleaner. Definitely something annoying distracting and it's going to cost rescue so going up from here, are we still getting to the area which can actually cause hearing loss over sustained exposure to anything about 80 decibels it can cause this, a lot of people listen to music much too loud it's in this volume and and that will cause hearing effects as time goes on a subway train well that's getting very loud now we're up to 95 decibels a lawnmowers 107 decibels a chainsaw a hundred and ten, and then we start getting close to where I actually physical pain occurs in your eardrums it's 125 decibels at jet 240 and what we're way past what we need to be talked about on this episode but.

[52:42] Your alarm clock are you hate so much every morning that's right around 80 decibels and this is that marker of anything Louder Than This can cause hearing damage. A rock band the next concert you go to probably pretty loud between 110 and 120 decibels something that very quickly causes hearing damage.

Daniel Forkner:

[52:58] David that's really interesting so why don't we look at again some of the specific Health consequences of being exposed to these decibels over a prolonged period of Time end and remember recall at Bernie Krause said that these decimals that were experiencing the sound of the enterprise-d, the effect is going to have on us is so much different, from the dynamic interconnected and complex sound signatures of a natural and wild soundscape but okay so let's look at this, scientist examined over 6 million people over the age of 65 residing near one of 89 airports in the United States to determine that the sounds of airplanes had an impact on health what they found is that for each 10 decibel increase in noise the risk of hospitalization from heart problems increased by three and a half percent.

David Torcivia:

[53:47] Similarly in 2015 paper published in the European heart Journal examined 8.6 million people in London and concluded that road traffic noise over 60 decibels raise the risk of stroke between 5 and 9% or people living in these areas first those who were exposed to less than 55 decibels. In addition long-term exposure to traffic noise during the day increases the risk of all causes of mortality.

Daniel Forkner:

[54:16] A 2017 study published in European heart Journal suggests that noise pollution could contribute to increased levels of stress hormones like cortisol in the blood, which can damage the body's regulation of insulin, blood samples of over 140,000 people were looked at any significant positive association between road traffic noise and this insulin response was found. The data suggest that a 10 decibel increase in traffic noise can result in an 8% higher risk for diabetes.

David Torcivia:

[54:48] Then I feel like every episode we do is basically about something that gives you diabetes. Like I like literally air pollution carbon dioxide here we are with noise pollution that Sugar episodes I mean constantly we're just figuring out that everything cuz his diabetes I think it was one of them.

Daniel Forkner:

[55:08] Right what is I mean it seems to be that being under chronic stress right I mean has this impact on us and so much of what we've introduced into the world is.

David Torcivia:

[55:19] In with stress.

Daniel Forkner:

[55:21] If you live in a city you're not escaping the sounds of. Is traffic noise and jackhammers are all around you unless you can find some noise cancelling headphones for example or soundproof your apartment bill.

David Torcivia:

[55:34] Well anyway me to get back to all these specific health effects, it shouldn't be surprising that many Studies have found links between noise pollution and weight gain and similarly in terms of very obvious things that scientist have discovered is well you know noise pollution has a pretty big effect on our sleep. Of course I mean we talked about sleep a couple weeks ago in episode 41 dead tired but a French study in the 1980s found something worth mentioning here. To the study looked at a number of participants were exposed to traffic noise over long period of time. And eventually they claimed that they got used to the sounds and it no longer bothered them or in a feud with their sleep but when the scientist measured their stress levels, they found that the brain was experiencing the same levels of stress as when they were first exposed to the noise suggesting that everyone who falls asleep and even slightly noisy environments could be experiencing mild levels of chronic stress without even realizing it.

Daniel Forkner:

[56:32] An association between regular exposure to noise above 55 decibels, and male infertility was found in 200,000 men in South Korea Over a four-year period suggesting David that my issue a sperm count has nothing to do with me personally not a character flaw but it could be related to the anthroposophy that is forced upon me which I have no choice but to interact.

David Torcivia:

[56:57] Emitted study on the effects of noise on children found that quote, more than 20 Studies have shown that children with chronic aircraft road traffic or rail noise exposure at school at for reading ability memory and performance on National standardized tests.

Daniel Forkner:

[57:14] And of course it is from this diversity of academic literature that has led the World Health Organization to calculate, at least 1 million life years are lost 1 million healthy life years are lost every year just in Western Europe because of noise pollution.

[57:31] And the European environmental agency links 10,000 premature deaths 43,000 Hospital Mission, and 900000 cases of hypertension every year on noise pollution. And as usual with these topics which honestly David we could do a better job of reminding people is that minorities and the poor are the most heavily impact, a 2017 study found that low-income neighborhoods are exposed to higher decibels than higher income neighborhood, black communities that are 70% black experience an additional 4 decibels at night then communities with no black dress. There could be a number of reasons for this for one, the land that's immediately surrounding a highway for example is going to be much cheaper than the one you know in the gated communities far away from the unfortunate noises of airport factories in road traffic. And while minorities in the poor might have higher exposure to this noise pollution the biggest impacts are those who are more vulnerable with in our communities like our children who need more sleep. And who suffer more consequences when that sleep is Disturbed the shift workers in our economy who might have a regular or sensitive sleep schedules already in this noise pollution just compounds the health impacts of that, and of course the elderly and the ill or more sensitive to stress.

David Torcivia:

[58:55] What is vulnerable as humans are in a specially the minority's among us maybe those most at risk are those who live entirely in the natural world that is the animals that make up the balcony itself.

Daniel Forkner:

[59:07] That's right and it's important to point out here David that when we list these Health consequences to individual species that's just, where are the academic literature is, right but ever since Bernie Krause started his natural soundscape recordings he has criticized the way we isolate species when we study them as he likes to point out you can't just isolate the sound of one bird, and try to study that do understand it because that bird does not sing in isolation, the primates in the jungle they don't beat their chests and they don't make the noises they make by themselves all the animals in their habitats they vocalize in response to one another and in response to their environment we have to take the whole the truly understand, now that doesn't mean we discount what we learn about individual species but no as we go forward discussing these negative health impact, on the species we love just keep in mind that what's missing is the health of entire habitats the BIOS attorney at law.

David Torcivia:

[1:00:11] That's right, I didn't we are changing the world so dramatically that other mammals are adapting their sleep patterns to avoid it weeks ago Daniel when we discuss the assault he bought a World Cup match against healthy sleep patterns in humans, are the patterns of industrialization. Forced us to conform to a sleep pattern different than one actually maybe natural well apparently we are also having the same impact on animals, on average now mammals are 1.4 times more nocturnal than they used to be which is altering their eating pattern and no doubt the stress levels as well.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:00:48] Speaking of stress David there's a 2002 study that examined the stress response of elk and wolves in Yellowstone National Park in response to the sounds of snowmobiles. Scientists measure the amount of glucocorticoids being secreted by each animal and found that the sounds of snowmobiles, significantly increase the level of the stress hormone and its population, you just like humans or animals like stress can be a normal and healthy response to Something in the short-term but when stress becomes chronic at least you a ton of problems like immune suppression reproductive suppression breakdown of muscle ulcers much more.

David Torcivia:

[1:01:27] Daniel and of course it isn't just elk but so many animals another one affected that we have a lot of literature on our tree swallows, tree swallows when exposed to are loud and thermogenic noises they lay fewer eggs and the birds that you hatch are underweight and grow fewer feathers, at the same time traffic noise causes the bird stress hormones also to accumulate.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:01:49] Last week David in episode 43 Fubar we discussed the way that are militaries around the world, wreak havoc on the environment even when they're outside of war never mind when they're actually dropping the bomb.

[1:02:05] In part because they do drop bombs in peacetime when they're blowing up Islands to test the effectiveness of their Mighty missiles and Rockets well another way that they're impacting our environment is the way they add sound to our marine environment. According to the US Navy the amount of noise in the ocean doubles every 10 years thanks to our activity the US Navy itself is the biggest user of sonar technology in the ocean, in 2012 the Navy reported that marine animals were exposed to sonar 2.5 million time, and that in general marine animals are exposed to sound levels likely to cause injury at least 500 times each year. Whales that are caught in the crossfire of our solar technology can experience death. Whales have extremely impressive vocal skills and hearing abilities they can speak to each other across an entire ocean basin, they can detect the sound of a storm from 1,000 miles away but this sensitivity also makes him extremely vulnerable to things like sonar the animals experience muscle and brain hemorrhaging bleeding of the brain an organ Legion. They become confused it lost cannot communicate with each other. Whales use their own forms of sonar to migrate a user to locate prey amazing partner all of which breaks down with the introduction of sonar technology.

David Torcivia:

[1:03:29] And speaking of whales and other marine animals, as we discussed in our very first episode sea ice is melting at alarming rates and some Industries see does not as a tragedy but as a business opportunity, the shipping industry as well as the oil industry is looking to the Arctic for new trade routes and new oil fields, and of course this will be traumatic and disastrous for the sensitive marine life in that area, a paper came out this year in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that examined 80 populations of seven different species in the Arctic and try to model how their lives to be impacted with the introduction of the ships and their sonar technology more than half appear to be at Great risk including narwhals belugas and bowhead whales.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:04:16] And that 2018 lady Beetle study that we referenced or Bernie Krause, it's study the relationships of those beetles to their target pray the aphid and the plant species they interact with what happened is that when rock music was introduced to their environment, lady beetles became less effective at locating their prey which caused aphid populations to increase, which then ate way more plant biomass than controlled environment this has resulted in the most amusing paragraph in an academic paper, ever.

David Torcivia:

[1:04:51] When exposed to music by ACDC the null hypothesis that rock and roll ain't noise pollution in a song of the same name lady beetles were less effective predators resulting in higher aphid density and reduced final plant biomass relative to control that is no music, well it is unclear what characteristics of sound generator these effects results for jet ski ACDC hypothesis and demonstrate that altered interspecific interactions can transmit the indirect effects of anthropogenic noise to a community.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:05:26] Or sum it up David rock and roll is noise pollution.

David Torcivia:

[1:05:31] There are many examples of the studies of a negative effect that are increasingly loud world has on the natural environment all around. But there is not nearly enough research being done into the interaction between sounds and the animals and insects that live among us.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:05:47] As Bernie Krause was quick to point out and criticized it's something that desperately needs attention up seems to be simply ignored in our major academic institutions at least in the United States. But you know what David maybe if our academic institutions won't pick up the slack, it doesn't mean that we as Citizens and as people of the earth can't ourselves, just as you and me we both went into our environment and we put on the headphones we used in my can we recorded the sounds around as well, you are listener and do the same thing even if you don't have a microphone even if you don't have headphones, when you go into the natural world try to use your ear and see what you find, personally I was walking through a nature trail just a couple of days ago and when I heard the Crickets when I heard the bird songs when I heard the squirrels jumping from limb to limb, I suddenly felt like I could hear it in a new way once I knew that is possible to listen to the sound of crickets and detect the Ambient Air Temperature, once I learned that it's possible to listen to the sound of insects and Trail a pray because of the way that moving animals cause insect vocalizations to shift, once you learn that there's so much information to be gleaned from the natural world it takes on new significance of profound signify.

[1:07:11] We can listen to that we can appreciate that and in appreciating it and telling our friends and family to appreciate it maybe we can work towards a world that appreciates it and actively preserve quickly fading natural sounds.

[1:07:26] We get a lot of Joy from listening to the sounds of birds it calms us it relaxes us it connects us to the world that we belong to but it goes so much beyond the aesthetic this is how are animals survive, this is how a healthy natural world functions not just through site but also through sound, it's how species organize themselves it's how they adapt their voices that's how they mask themselves that's how they find their prey find their mates. And it's long past overdue that we recognized that our activity on this planet has consequences. And we must adjust ourselves accordingly before it is too late.

David Torcivia:

[1:08:09] I think it says a lot about all of us Daniel in about our civilization and Society in general. And we quite literally learned to be deaf and learn deafness idea we talked about the opening of this episode the natural world around us is crying out. It's screaming and then it's going silent we can't hear it because we've learned to be deaf to everything that's going on immediately outside of our electro-mechanical civilized society. The world outside of our cities and towns and highways might as well not exist we don't think about it we don't interact with it the closest we get this popping down turning on Netflix and watching the latest Blue Planet documentary. But this is the world this is the Natural State this is the land that has been here for Millions tens of millions hundreds of millions of years making sounds long before we were here and will continue to hopefully long after we're gone, these are the sounds that we grew up into as a species. As a culture and we've left them behind lost contact with them separated ourselves from what is natural and beautiful and then we wonder why we're also sick so depressed so out of sync with the world. Because we build these walls disconnected ourselves and then learn to be Deft everything around us when we cover up all that is natural. And healthy but it sounds of Industry technology the sounds that some might call growth sounds of power.

[1:09:37] Is it any wonder that we feel so alienated from our world and from each other. Last week we talked about military campaign to destroy the island of pocket for training purposes, I'll just connected do they have to be from the earth that bombing the island in the natural species that live there towns like a healthy good and productive idea, I'm subjecting tens of thousands of citizens to the endless sounds of combat just a few miles away because they have bombs to drop and bullets to fire.

[1:10:07] Everything we do everything we talked about in this show is really about this learn deafness about how we learn to ignore everything that isn't immediately, shoved down our throats by the industries and consumerism that controls so much for modern society but we can call that back just like we learn to be deaf we can learn to hear again to witness this could live in this world once more and be connected with what is natural what has always been and what is healthy for all of us and it does not mean just humans it doesn't mean our society and culture but also the entire natural world and everything that lives within it. Only by reconnecting to our world 2 learning to hear again. The feeling one with that natural environment can we ever even hope to begin to move in the direction of saving it cuz if we continue to consider ourselves living outside this natural world in these walled cities we constructed. Walls of sound walls of distance walls of Technology will than the earth and all of us don't really have much of a whole.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:11:09] Any of you decide to go out to the natural world and make some recordings of natural soundscape send them to us and maybe we'll start an album on Soundcloud where we can compile recordings from all over the world.

David Torcivia:

[1:11:22] This is been a really therapeutic practice for both Daniel me there's a lot of relatively inexpensive tools you can use to God do this but even just your phone walking outside, sitting somewhere silently pressing record and then just taking a moment to think and experience the world around you is a really beautiful meditative thing and I highly recommend to each of our listeners to go out and try this at least once.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:11:43] So David what else can we do.

David Torcivia:

[1:11:45] Well I mean beyond our individual experience of the natural world learning to hear again there's a lot of things that Bernie alluded to that we can bring back so noise abatement programs in the government that work to make sure we live in a quieter and more sonorous world are absolutely something that we should be looking at, a lot of cities have built walls around highways for example that do have a big impact on how loud the sound Scapes around them are for residents that's important.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:12:12] The state of Texas has experimented with new ways of laying concrete highways that reduces the sound of traffic by 6 decibels which is equivalent to a 70% reduction in traffic on the old concrete methods.

David Torcivia:

[1:12:26] Are there lots of Earthworks being built around airport to try and help with those low frequency rumbles that's it area of research. Making sure that we are paying attention to sounds in the first place within the academic Community Like Bernie mentioned there's a huge lack of research in this topic especially in the United States almost all the studies we pulled for this episode or european studies because this idea of sound is something that could be making us sick just really doesn't seem to exist in the United States, which is a shame because this is one of the ladder places on Earth, even places like that India Egypt baby woken up that just how debilitating sound can be for people there and it sounded very loud in those cities in particular, and if they realize this and they're working to try and and understand this problem better and then also do practical things one of these cities there's a several-year jail time for exceeding sound levels at certain certain hours in certain areas, also taking this as a serious problem and making sure that we have the money to look into it and and the interested of people, is a huge important step in fighting this and I'm returning back to this morn a chiral soundscape.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:13:32] So there's definitely things projects and in ways of going about our society but it has to begin with awareness of this problem in the first place like you mentioned it. As we both said it's been therapeutic for us to go out and listen to Nature. We encourage everyone to do this any chance you get try to listen to the natural world and recognize that your brain may have learned be death to the natural world but you can get it back, see what you can hear try to point out the different species you here see if you can notice are they change as you go about the environment. And of course listen or what has been lost it'll teach us to preserve what remains.

David Torcivia:

[1:14:12] As always that's a lot to think about if you want to read about any of these topics Listen to Sound samples or check out Bernie Ted talk you can do all of that on our website as well as read a full transcript of this episode at ashes ashes. Org.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:14:26] A lot of time and research goes into making these episodes possible and we will never use ads to support the show, so if you like it and would like us to keep going you our listener can support us by giving us a review recommending us to a friend, also we have an email address it's contact at ashes ashes. O RG and we encourage you to send us your thoughts will read them and we appreciate.

David Torcivia:

[1:14:50] You can also find it on your favorite social media Network app ashes ashes cast next week we're beginning a three-part series on the world of healthcare and you definitely want to tune in for that until then this is ashes ashes.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:15:08] Or sum it up David rock and roll is noise pollution.

David Torcivia:

[1:15:13] Burnout burnout. I'll rub letter. I don't know I don't know the word no no.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:15:38] McDonald's.

David Torcivia:

[1:15:40] You know that's all you do.

Daniel Forkner:

[1:15:42] What song you're doing a real song.

David Torcivia:

[1:15:44] As a real song.