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Chapters
- 03:16 The Slot Machine
- 07:31 Time on Phone Numbers
- 10:24 Addicting by Design
- 28:00 Notifications
- 33:40 Business of Addiction
- 43:09 The Illusion of Choice
- 56:23 The Children
- 01:00:22 Going Forward?
- 01:04:38 Practical Tips and Tricks
(This transcript is MEGA FUCKED UP. We'll fix it soon! Please bear with us in the meantime)
Daniel Forkner: [0:03] David what's that sound.
David Torcivia: [0:04] It's me winning Daniel.
Daniel Forkner: [0:06] Sounds like a lot of money is being made.
David Torcivia: [0:10] This baby is paying out I'm not ready to record the show right now.
Daniel Forkner: [0:12] David we got to go come on.
David Torcivia: [0:14] But dang I'm I'm winning. I'm going to be able to pay off your fine if this keeps going.
Daniel Forkner: [0:19] That 1 billion dollar fine you're going to be playing for a long time I'm afraid.
David Torcivia: [0:23] I'mma put it all on black and be fine.
Daniel Forkner: [0:25] You know that you know it's interesting that we find ourselves here in this casino is that we're going to be talking about social media.
David Torcivia: [0:32] Wow that is a big coincidence Daniel.
Daniel Forkner: [0:34] Yeah because social media actually has a lot in common with casinos.
David Torcivia: [0:39] What tell me more.
Daniel Forkner: [0:41] Well you know if you think about it social media tries to get you her, and here we are in a casino in everywhere around us we see things trying to suck Us in and get our eyeballs on the machines get us hooked to these things get us to throw our money away just throw our time away.
David Torcivia: [0:58] Well I think you're leaving out the biggest similarity of all.
Daniel Forkner: [1:01] What's that David.
David Torcivia: [1:02] All these cameras watching me right now all the people surveilling everything I do right now I mean if that's not like social media I don't know what it is.
Daniel Forkner: [1:10] You know that is a good point know where do you get more surveilled than in a casino where so much money is at stake but everything we do on social media as we've talked about his tract you open up the app it's track. You send somebody a message its track all to figure out the best way to track your behavior shape your behavior.
David Torcivia: [1:32] What is an Iowa casinos are really designed to do shape our Behavior to get a desired output in this case it's.
Daniel Forkner: [1:41] Right but maybe that's where the similarity is because of social media perhaps it just happens to be addicting right it's designed to be a tool to help us with something whether that's connect.
[1:55] Probably just a side effect.
David Torcivia: [1:58] David torcivia.
Daniel Forkner: [2:05] I'm Daniel forkner.
David Torcivia: [2:06] And this is ashes ashes it show about the stomach issues cracks in civilization collapse of the environment and if one lucky the end of the world.
Daniel Forkner: [2:15] But if we learn from all of this maybe we can stop that the world might be broken but it doesn't have to be.
David Torcivia: [2:22] And this week the topic is addiction and social media damn I turn my phone off and I'm literally picking it up to check it. Cuz I'm like trying to look at the time to see how's it going even quite literally picking up my phone pressing the button and then it's off and I'm like oh wait yeah that's right I turn my phone off, but here I am like so program that I'm picking it up checking it right now this is this is a problem I have a serious problem even after falling all recommendations of the show.
Daniel Forkner: [2:51] Well we're going to have some more recommendations for you at the end of this show David it's going to be an intervention actually this is why we're doing the show it has nothing to do with the listener we're not providing any, for The Listener specifically but this is for you David this is an intervention on your addictive habits related to your smartphone, and we are trying here to understand that and put a stop to it.
David Torcivia: [3:12] I feel attacked but I'm willing to listen so let's say let's get started.
Daniel Forkner: [3:16] Well since we're in the casino we need to look at what is the most addicting part of any casinos what would you guess that is David.
The Slot Machine David Torcivia: [3:24] The free drinks.
Daniel Forkner: [3:26] Dang it I didn't think you'd actually come up with a better answer no it is the slot machine David there are more slot machines in the United States then there are ATM machines and we spend more money on these negative money machines.
David Torcivia: [3:44] Yeah but can a movie do this winning big Daniel I'm winning big.
Casino 1
Daniel Forkner: [3:50] No I guess it.
David Torcivia: [3:51] Play did it all my money I'm lying.
Daniel Forkner: [3:54] What you keep playing David I think you'll find out that at the end of the day you'll have about 10% less money, then you had when you started because you see slot machines are not quite so Random actually there are regulations on slot machines in the United States at least every state varies a little.
[4:18] So at the end of the day the house is going to take 10% of your money when you play the slot machine. So why do people play it why do people willingly sit down and spend more money on this machine than they do baseball or theme parks or movies when they know they're going to end up with less money than they started guaranteed.
David Torcivia: [4:37] I mean Daniel still the big draw of a casino of the gambling of playing slots. Jack let whatever it is whatever your game is is of course to draw the small chance that you could be the one that wins Big, and that's why people come here in the first place but I think the better question and what's relevant with this show is the question of what what keeps them staying and what makes them pick this casino instead of another. What that answer is is design the way these casinos are constructed everything what element is put together to draw you in and keep you there, is the longer you stay in the casino that 90% win rate but that means more and more money for the house so casinos use all manners of keeping you inside, from the design of the area the way to slot machines are laid out the noises they make the colors you interact with the free drinks people bring by even some casinos have experimented with releasing certain types of spells in the gambling room.
Daniel Forkner: [5:32] And the slot machines themselves of course employ a whole manner of tactics to get you to stay so from the moment you sit down at a slot machine, it's designed to suck you in there been psychologist I have helped develop these things and there's so many ways that it takes advantage of our very human vulnerabilities you press a button and you wait a couple seconds to see what rewards you got and that anticipation coupled with the fact that you don't know if you're going to get a reward this time or the next time will it has an addicting quality to. You play a slot machine in solitude so it's harder for someone to pull you away there are no breaks in the game it's indefinitely continuous to a person has to intentionally Force themselves to quit, and there's so many lights and things going on that it becomes easy to lose yourself in the moment and forget about time for forget about your other obligations, and as we'll see this might have some parallels to the very things that we carry around in our pockets with us every single day and we mentioned that these slot machines are regulated and that makes sense right I mean we are literally giving this thing our money so I think we can understand the need to apply a little bit of consumer protection on this thing that is designed to take advantage of.
[6:45] What about when the same tools that go into this slot machine what happens when those same tools get apply to the devices that we use everyday which makes us throw our time away our attention away our privacy and even control over our own live.
David Torcivia: [7:03] Daniel I spend more time on my phone then I would like to I'm the first to admit that and that's why I have it off right now so I'm not tempted to turn this on and get this track. In the middle of our recording of this episode, but I know I'm not alone in this and I know that many people spend a lot of time on their phones so it's on Facebook from the Mindless browsing Instagram, talking to friends reading sites online whatever your fixes the phone probably has it for you somewhere in there about the same numbers Daniel.
Time On Phone Numbers Daniel Forkner: [7:34] Sorry that I was actually checking my phone right now like. But I know and I know I was making fun of you a little bit at the beginning of the show but this is actually an intervention for both of us so I installed an app on my phone to track over the past couple days how much I spent on my phone, and let's see on Saturday I picked my phone up a hundred and twenty five times.
David Torcivia: [7:57] And that's less than average actually.
Daniel Forkner: [7:59] On Monday I picked it up 91 time.
David Torcivia: [8:02] You doing pretty good.
Daniel Forkner: [8:03] Yeah maybe I am and so I was curious what are these averages and it turns out that the amount of time that we spend on our phones has increased dramatically over the past few years it's more than dub.
[8:28] Entertainment these are things like Netflix and an overwhelming 51% it's been 10 social media messaging apps are a mere 12%. In The Raw hours we spend on our devices is actually pretty staggering the most quoted figure is 5 hours a day on average and other Studies have found between two and a half. 4 Hour.
David Torcivia: [8:49] You know those numbers right they remind me of old numbers Wendy's to scaremonger families back when we were young the saying old don't let your children watch TV all day the average job watching TV 4 to 5 hours a day for some ridiculous made-up stat like that and well here we are now with these phones I guess having usurped the position of the television and what dominates our time, or if you're clever and multitask you nibble the one.
Daniel Forkner: [9:14] No that's absolutely right and that's will see it's not an equal substitution because there's a lot more going on under the hood of what is in our devices than a traditional television, just a couple more stats We Touch our phones on average over 2,500 times per day, which includes clicks swipe stops and we open our phones anywhere from 75 to 130 times each day so you're right I was kind of right in the middle of that, and in one study 87% of participants touch their phones at least one time between midnight and 5 a.m. And all these stats don't include data on the time.
[9:57] Unlocking the phone itself.
David Torcivia: [9:58] Okay so it's really clear at this point and we spend a lot of time with our phones with these devices and it's clear that we, these things basically constantly all throughout the day but is this necessarily a bad thing I'm going to get a lot of useful information out of my phone I learned a lot of things I read a lot of articles so then you're active checking this all the time of looking into it necessarily A Bad Thing.
Daniel Forkner: [10:21] I think that's something that we're going to figure out as we go through this show and it really comes down to what you said at the beginning of the show about casinos which is.
Addicting By Design [10:35] Things that go into making a casino addicting are going into the devices that we use. In fact Sean Parker the co-founder of Napster and one of the early presidents of Facebook admitted not long ago that making Facebook addicting was the girl from the very start you said quote.
[11:00] Take your time and conscious attention as possible, it's a social validation feedback loop exactly the kind of thing that a hacker like myself would come up with because you are exploiting a vulnerability in human psychology and quote. Interest on Harris who worked at Google and became Google's first Chief ethicist when he started talking about the dangers of Technology on our behaviors, we just come out against the addictive nature of technology and explain how it is used against us against our very human vulnerability weaknesses and the human mind and the limits to our perception so that we can be influenced without even knowing.
David Torcivia: [11:38] So when you talk about phrases like exploiting a vulnerability in human psychology or concepts like hacking our brain to get attention I mean this is very alarming stuff you think this is the kind of things that these Tech CEOs would look at it be like well I don't want to be responsible for this even if it maybe does make me some money I mean this is like something I'm concerned about or I know myself and for others and in fact some of them have basically come out with this the only to the point were saying I'm concerned about my own interactions with this technology and interactions of my loved ones but I'm not enough to actually make it movement where I'm going to impact my bottom line.
Daniel Forkner: [12:13] There are some surprising examples of this so Tim Cook the current CEO of Apple has stated that he doesn't believe in the overuse of technology and he put strict boundaries on the use of technology for his nephew there simply some things that he won't allow his nephew to do such as get on social network. And Steve Jobs the CEO of Apple before him well in 2010 when the very first iPad was launched, Steve Jobs admitted to a journalist that he didn't allow his children to own one and that he limited the use of Technology available to his kid.
David Torcivia: [12:45] Many other Tech entrepreneurs and Tech CEOs play strict limits on the use of technology in their household Evan Williams the former CEO of Twitter and founder of bloggers and medium doesn't allow his kids don't iPads either, another former Twitter CEO only permits his family to use screens in the living room and nowhere else CEO 3D robotics Chris Andersen fits time limits on every device and won't permit his children to use any screen in their bedrooms, others limit Tech use to 30 minutes a day on the weekend and none during the week I'm starting to see a pattern here Daniel.
Daniel Forkner: [13:18] Yeah but you know it's not just the tech entrepreneurs that are concerned about the way technology interact with their kids, but perhaps it's alarming from the Viewpoint that they know the most about how this technology works if there are alarmed well that means that something is going on right, and I mean I guess all of us kind of have a sense that over use of social media and devices, must be having some kind of negative effect on us there was a survey done of parents and 94% of them said that they try to do at least something to limit the use of technology for the kids at least during the school year and I could be anything from, limiting the use of the dinner table or you know not letting children use their device after a certain hour at night before they go to bed and more than half of parents say that they worry about how this technology is affecting the mental and physical health of their children so it's something we're all concerned about but again I think we don't understand fully the intent that goes behind this addiction I mean I think it's one thing to say that here's a tool that we use and it's good to use it in moderation but like anything you don't want to overuse it, what is another thing to say that the reason it's addicting in the first place is because the programmers and the entrepreneurs behind creating it built it from the ground up to take advantage of our deepest vulnerabilities and weaknesses.
David Torcivia: [14:39] That's a great jumping-off point to maybe look at exactly what some of these weaknesses are and of how these devices apps and social networks are really quite honestly designed to be addicting. And maybe before we can look at exactly how these are designed we need to look at the mechanism that these things exploit and there's a couple different Behavior models that psychologist that neurologist have come across and basically sold to Silicon Valley in order to hack remind and one of these days if bog behavior model and it's basically broken down into three elements. Some motivation prompts and the ability to do something what do you have these up together and you trigger them in the right way then you can affect Behavior, do you make this into an equation b equals map.
Daniel Forkner: [15:23] Be being the behavior that I want and nap being the motivation of my user the ability for them to do something and then. Or the trigger that combines as motivation and ability to result in a choice a decision or an action.
David Torcivia: [15:40] Turning a very simple idea into a complicated equation to break it down into a very obvious example and go to Facebook. There's a red notification icon on the top so let's look at this in AP here so 1 the motivation I want to see what is behind that red icon.
Daniel Forkner: [15:57] I want to see who liked my photo.
David Torcivia: [15:59] So you have the prompt the red icon itself has look at me there's something to click on here the ability.
Daniel Forkner: [16:06] It's really easy to click on that David.
David Torcivia: [16:08] It isn't it's in their thread is going it says please please click on me and make no mistake that red color was chosen for a reason okay so now what we got an AP we got the motivation to prompted the ability to do something and well you know where simple animals we're going to do it when I click on it, at the behavior so it just says that a friend posted a photo that I don't care about that's a bummer.
Daniel Forkner: [16:31] Okay but David is not enough to just have a notification somewhere I mean there's a reason someone is opening the app to begin with and so going back to the casino I mean there's a lot of similarity between that slot machine and an app like Facebook so even right when you open the app before you have even seen the news feed before you have seen any notifications there's something going on, and that's it it takes a couple seconds for Facebook to load, and you might think that's because it's got algorithms to shift through or processing power but in fact this is intentional deprogrammers have learned to build.
[17:10] 1 programmer admitted to implementing a delay in the results for a loan application ask because when it returned results as fast as it could both people didn't believe the app is authentic there was a lady in the results gave people the perception of credibility.
David Torcivia: [17:23] The one that always bothers me Daniel is whenever I'm trying to like look up cheap plane tickets and I put in my departure airport at my destination whatever and then you know does that thing was like old searching all available flights and it like loaded like slowly over the course of like 30 seconds and I'm sitting there waiting.
Daniel Forkner: [17:39] Maybe Nikon comes out where it's like a plane like you know like circling around.
David Torcivia: [17:41] Yeah the plan like takes off and sores across and it's like a little stupid game I visit there.
Daniel Forkner: [17:46] Loading loading.
David Torcivia: [17:47] Yeah it's not it's just doing a search Quest out that takes very little time to query all the stuff.
Daniel Forkner: [17:51] Basically instantaneous.
David Torcivia: [17:53] More or less it and it's definitely not enough that I have to sit here for two minutes to finish its fake deal finding such a waste of time.
Daniel Forkner: [18:00] Maybe the programmer can't exactly be blamed for that because there were examples where when apps like that whether that's the loan application or its personalized deals people just thought it was fake they said there's no way something can return results that quickly it must be pre-generated but these artificial waiting times programmers have figured out is very important to making something more. Is the Instagram and Twitter both have intentional delays when you open the apps before they display their Newsfeed and it's part of this slot machine effect if you think about an old time slot machine David you pull the lever and then the numbers or the pictures they go round and round in circles until it finally comes to a stop and that makes sense mechanically if something has wound up and now it's got to go through its cycle but nowadays slot machines are all digital so there's really no need at all for this waiting. But yet they still do it you push the button and although the machine could give you an instant result ads the delay, and that is intentional it's to give you a sense of and.
[19:06] And that is variable reward.
David Torcivia: [19:09] So these variable rewards is a basic concept every time you pull that slot machine lever you don't know if you're going to wait or not.
[19:24] Pick up your phone on silent you pick it up you hit the button who is there notification did I get a like on my Instagram whatever it is it's fun you get to see y'all don't know there's nothing there it's okay you know I'll open up Instagram and maybe there's something good there. Sounds good scroll through these pictures in as I scroll I'm quite literally digitally recreating the experience a spinning a slot machine going down hoping I strike Jack.
[19:54] If it's going to be there or not sometimes it is and what it is I get that dopamine hit that's the reward the variable unpredictable reward for most often there's nothing there but I keep scrolling and the feed keeps going because that's another one of these components of addiction The Continuous scroll.
Daniel Forkner: [20:09] Or the continuous wife I mean if you think about apps like Tinder or dating apps where you keep swiping to the left or right swipe swipe swipe up there's a match jackpot.
David Torcivia: [20:19] Mine's more like match match match.
Daniel Forkner: [20:21] It wasn't I'm guessing David you don't go on dating apps very much that must not be very addicting.
David Torcivia: [20:28] No I am addicted to I getting my match numbers I can top score baby.
Daniel Forkner: [20:33] David you're definitely an anomaly you're an exception to the rule, because being unpredictable is so important to think about a slot machine you know you're going to lose money but because you don't know exactly how it's going to happen you keep coming back but if I designed a slot machine that was guaranteed to return a hundred, .001% of your money but every time you hit the button you got the exact same payout, even though you're going to walk away with more money than you ever would from the traditional slot machine, you simply would not play it but you know you brought up something else David which is the street and this is another component of our apps and our digital technologies that make them addicting and that's turning everything into a game or game of the case, and probably the worst example of this is Snapchat.
David Torcivia: [21:17] Daniel what are the best examples of is gamification is what the Snapchat developers have done with the streaks so if you ever use Snapchat and if you have it no I'm going to describe it to you because it is awful trash can of an app. So you open up you talk to your friend just in the messages you chats whatever some certain select friends get little emojis next to name. Depending on how often how frequently and how much you messaged these people. Make it little trophies in the form of emojis there's a heart for your best friend there's Fires for somebody that you was talking to frequently and the more days do you speak to somebody and they speak back to you you add to this street. Blame Emoji streak. As you go farther and farther without breaking his streak you get better emojis it didn't you get promoted basically in this Emoji Street game where you could tiny little trophies Nexus person's name that shows how.
[22:15] Addiction of using this app of messaging this particular person of constantly being open the map and getting their monthly active users and amount of time people spend in the wraps high they can put their investors was advertisers Etc.
Daniel Forkner: [22:27] That's single feature has been so addicting for some people for teenagers and children that they have actually, given their password and account information to other friends so that they can keep their streak alive when they go on vacation or otherwise don't have access to their account, and speaking about friends I mean what is social media all about at the end of the day about connecting with other people. Right but the programmers have figured out how to take advantage of our biggest vulnerability and that's the we desire connection with other human beings we desire approval and if you notice things about Facebook and other social media sites that it makes it very easy to send approval for someone and very hard to send this approval friend since there is a like button on Facebook but there is no dislike button.
David Torcivia: [23:15] All the petitions I signed.
Daniel Forkner: [23:16] David if you want to make more friends like we talked about this you got to show a little bit more you got to be less than negative.
David Torcivia: [23:22] Now the old-school Facebook poke that's that's where it's at.
Daniel Forkner: [23:25] Did that one was a little bit hard to interpret which is probably why they got rid of it.
David Torcivia: [23:30] I think it changes its wave now I think you can wave at someone.
Daniel Forkner: [23:34] Yeah anyway. But these platforms they provide this illusion of Engagement by making it quick effortless and sometimes automatic to interact with others but because we are isolated from each other in these interact, the impact that we feel often far exceeds the initial interaction if I look at someone's Instagram story.
[24:02] Give me on a list of people that viewed it and in your mind you might Envision that interaction but you might Envision how I reacted to your picture what might have gone through my mind how long.
David Torcivia: [24:14] I know it's a while.
Daniel Forkner: [24:21] Sonic Lee's cycle through the stories of all my connections so I don't even have to watch it for you to get that sense that I interacted with you and engaged with you and all this creates the illusion of.
David Torcivia: [24:32] Yeah that's what we have the illusion of connection.
Daniel Forkner: [24:37] Drake is in jeopardy.
David Torcivia: [24:38] No but more than anything when I recognize is when you don't watch my story. When your name is conspicuously absent from the people that viewed my 15 seconds of Fame on my Instagram story, and it's because the other half of social vulnerability is reciprocity, it's not just enough for me to go out and interact with somebody else I need you to come and interact with me as well even if that only means you are named sitting there on the bottom of a list saying you watched what I put out into the world.
Daniel Forkner: [25:07] If there's a lot more tools that are going on to try and get us hooked on these things you mentioned of fear of missing out David, and digital technology services and apps are really great at making us feel, is a we will miss out on something important if we don't stay updated it's common to hear people say they don't like the impact Facebook has on their lives but the idea of eradicating that, is Unthinkable precisely for this reason because what if we missed out on something important that has happened to a friend we barely know what if we miss an event invitation, what if someone has a baby and we don't find out.
David Torcivia: [25:40] A baby Daniel I mean like this is I think one of the highlights of this just how ridiculous we've gotten about social media.
Daniel Forkner: [25:47] We know Facebook is like in test if you know they came out with that announcement hey we're going to prioritize the things that matter most like big Advanced like if someone has a baby or they get married we're going to make sure you see that.
David Torcivia: [25:58] We talked about this in the past when like trigger words I can graduations pop up you get higher in that Facebook news feed because of this but like if I have to find out you have a baby through a push notification on my app I mean like. We aren't really friends you're like distant acquaintances at Best come on.
Daniel Forkner: [26:14] And that's kind of the point that these push notifications the way we're always getting notifications about all these different things you said you go on Facebook and it used to be, you got notified when someone directly interact with you they post it on your wall Dimensions you but now you go on and you get notifications for literally the most random thing you can think of like a.
David Torcivia: [26:35] I'm going to Facebook right now.
Daniel Forkner: [26:44] You're spinning the slot wheel.
David Torcivia: [26:46] Vacation is going to be really embarrassing if there's nothing there's nothing here.
Daniel Forkner: [26:54] Well that's the variable reward David right you open it this time you don't get something.
David Torcivia: [26:58] Yeah but earlier it told me some people that I sort of know are going to events that are nearby me tomorrow when I click on it there in like different states so good good job Facebook.
Daniel Forkner: [27:09] Exactly that's the whole point is that that notification right there telling you hey you have acquaintances that are going to an event. We just updated you we catch you in the loop you would have missed out on this important information if we hadn't pushed it to you it adds to this idea this fear that oh if I don't keep checking this thing if I don't keep it in front of me a hundred and fifty times a day I might miss something but like like you pointed out some of these things that we think we're missing will, the fact that we have to rely on something like Facebook to tell us maybe tells us something about.
David Torcivia: [27:42] Our actual relationship.
Daniel Forkner: [27:44] Briefly look at these notifications and the effect they're having on it.
David Torcivia: [27:49] Notifications are the most visible component of any of these at. Prophecies in these apps because they're the things to draw us into the applications in the first place you're much less likely open Instagram WhatsApp Facebook whatever if you aren't getting a little pop up that says.
Notifications [28:04] Open up Instagram Facebook whatever there's something may be here for you to see and this has traumatic effects on our Behavior.
Daniel Forkner: [28:12] So there was a paper carried out by Carnegie Mellon University and a Spanish research organization between 2015 and 2017 which study the effects of notifications on participants levels of stress social connectivity and other indicators of Mental Health. Is it what the study date is it took a handful of participants and ask them to disable all notifications for 24 hours. And the next day they ask them about their stress levels how other people perceive them how they felt socially connected to other people.
David Torcivia: [28:47] And to be clear this wasn't saying the aren't allowed to use these apps or check the phone just that the notifications for these applications had to be turn off that's it.
Daniel Forkner: [28:56] And it had some effects on people stress participant's worried more during the state they might be missing out on important information, and as a result they were more likely to check their phones manually but then other participants reported a lower level of stress and anxiety and even feelings of relaxation and Liberation and that's likely because with these notifications there's two competing sources of stress on the one hand we have the stress that is induced by receiving a notification which interrupts us which makes us stop what we're doing to see what we missed we might feel like we have to respond immediately and this races are cortisol levels but on the other hand is the stress associated with the fear, that you may be missing out on something so getting rid of notifications lowers the stress we experience from the interruptions but it can raise the stress we feel associated with not responding to people when we think we are expected to.
David Torcivia: [29:52] When the biggest results of the study is that participants became aware of exactly how these notifications were affecting them, so feeling this two sides of stress but also realizing that they could survive without it, I'm so many of these participants became aware of the benefits of enabling the so-called Do Not Disturb mode on their phone for the periods of time that they actually need to focus.
Daniel Forkner: [30:13] And there were a number of participants who decided that hate even though this study has concluded I want to go forward with different settings on my notification so that only notified on the things that are most important to me.
David Torcivia: [30:25] And in fact these new habits will they stuck around so two years later when researchers came back to check in on those who decided that they were going to adjust their notification settings 60% of them have followed through and continue using is modified notification.
Daniel Forkner: [30:39] It's at least what this research seems to suggest that these push notifications Drive Mobile phone use at least for a lot of it and it can cause people to Halt their activities to respond immediately to these things that pop up on their screens.
David Torcivia: [30:54] And this has affects obviously on our attention to some researchers decided to do basically the opposite of the study we just talked about and instead of cutting out all these notifications. Instead for their participants to maximize the.
Daniel Forkner: [31:06] Nice.
David Torcivia: [31:07] Turn on as many possible notifications as you can find on your phone just endless note. Is buzzing constantly all the time filling up every single moment and of course what does this do. Will the participants in the study at much higher levels of inattention and hyperactivity but basically the same symptoms as ADHD.
Daniel Forkner: [31:26] And these studies they looked at a handful of participants but the American Psychological Association surveyed over 3,500 adults in the US in 2016 and they found that those who constantly check their devices that are emailed or text and social media they have higher levels of stress than those who don't.
David Torcivia: [31:45] Okay so let's let's hold up take a step back my favorite phrase a look at this here because we're not really breaking any new ground with this conversation Daniel like maybe we pointed out some of these addictive mechanisms that app designers use to manipulate us but we all know that social media is addicting we all know that it has negative effects on us because we can feel it we can see it in her friends we all know that phone addicted friend. I mean what are we saying here that's really that interesting but what's the point of all of this.
Daniel Forkner: [32:10] Did I think the significance of the so we talked about how these devices can be addicting we talked about how they have negative effects on us, and I suppose people cuz I will what is the big deal after all I mean these are tools are supposed to benefit Our Lives, so what if we over use them sometimes but I think the point that we have to make here is that, having strong Habits by themselves that's not necessarily bad or good that could be a great thing if you have bitch really brush your teeth after every meal will that might be good thing for you if you have been really get good sleep that's going to give you benefits. And so if we are addicted to our phones if we're addicted to social media but it translates into positive results positive consequences and benefits for us individually and as a society that would be fine but as we see what these notifications and the effects it has on our worry or stress anxiety or mental health, we're not exactly benefiting from the overuse of these devices and it will see this is really just the tip of the iceberg.
David Torcivia: [33:10] Exactly Daniel the tip of the iceberg I like that phrase let's see What Lies Beneath these murky depths, the future of addiction in this is where the episode I think it's compelling from me isn't any continued deployment of these tactics that we've discussed so far things like notifications continuous scrolling whatever these Mainstays of a design at the moment, those are going to be component.
Business Of Addiction Daniel Forkner: [33:53] So this is a company in Silicon Valley who has a neuroscientist on their team helping these programmers come up with algorithms that can learn from a user's Behavior.
[34:13] So they sell this service to any app that will buy it you have a fitness app and you want people to be more engaged you can buy their algorithms with run in the background and figure out how to get those users coming back to the service, and I think this really highlights the intent behind the design of the technology of these devices because the goal is to increase usage across the app not just drive specific actions like purchases they do this by experimenting on every single individual with this artificial intelligence and Instagram is an example of this.
David Torcivia: [34:46] It's weird to think of a social media app as a laboratory but really because of these customize a eyes that's what they become, and we are the lab rats in them I mean there's always a joke about if you aren't paying for the product and you are the product will not only are we the product at this point but would become the very test animals that they used to modify and improve their product, that is our Behavior likelihood to click on ads. Constantly the musical Tommy Instagram right it's very simple of an app you open it up there are pictures there you scroll through you like photos and you also post photos people like it, yeah everyone wins were triggering are dopamine yeah simple. It's not well optimized for modifying our Behavior to click on those ads open it as much as possible to see as many of those ads as we can, inter modifying any I customize Instagram experience.
Daniel Forkner: [35:41] Are you saying I'm looking at pictures that were posted by artificial intelligence David.
David Torcivia: [35:46] Not quite I mean these are real photos your friends did post them but your bespoke Instagram experience if you will need a lot I'm getting my little advertising chops out here customized by an artificial intelligence. Who is analyzed the thousands of interactions you've had with Instagram over the lifetime of your account has analyzed thousands tens of thousands millions of people who are similar to you in some way, and it's all sorts of different ways of interacting the app with you which pictures should come first which friends should be the top of the list, when do I notify you that a friend is posted. What friends do I notify you like your photos what order what time one of these notifications pop-up which story do we show first what's the order of the stories. All these things play into a very customized design experience to maximize your interaction with the Instagram feed and the more times they can give you, pay off that feeling of reward because they got the combination right the more times you going to open up Instagram looking for the dopamine hit, and that means dollars at the end of the day.
Daniel Forkner: [36:52] This is the unpredictability That Vary over Ward to send that we talked about that you find in slot machines where you open the app and you don't know what you're going to get. Sometimes it could be 20 like sometimes I could be 0 and this is what is so crazy to me to think that if I'm on Instagram and someone likes my photo the Opera may decide not even to tell me that at that moment because it knows I'm already engaged just going to wait until it thinks that I have a gap in my interest and then is going to batch these likes that I've received over the past however many minutes or hours is going to give them to me don't out for maximum engagement.
David Torcivia: [37:29] Like Daniel said this is where the story gets interesting because no longer are we dealing simply with mechanisms of addiction design by programmers with maybe a single ethics class under their belt but instead we are handing control of these tools which we know pack our brains, to AI with a single goal of maximizing our monetary value.
Daniel Forkner: [37:50] If you look at boundless a eyes marketing material they actually say just that and one of the Panthers highlighting some of their case studies they say quote variable reinforcement glues are behaviors and plates, it is the code the brains have it Machinery runs on it's also optimize herbal personalizable and adaptable, that's what boundless AI does our artificial intelligence optimizes reinforcement to predictably increase habit formation in quote. And so Anderson Cooper on 60 Minutes actually highlighted this company in one of the reports and he asked the co-founder of this company is just so you're trying to figure out how to get people coming back, this is what the co-founder says quote.
David Torcivia: [38:34] When should I make you feel a little extra awesome to get you to come back into the app longer why that moment there's some algorithm somewhere that predicted. I just use a right now who's the experimental subject 793 be an experiment two three one we think we can see an improvement in his behavior if you give it to him in this burst instead of that burst, you're part of a controlled set of experiments that are happening in real time across you and millions of other people. Your guinea pigs in the Box pushing the button and sometimes getting the likes and they're doing this to keep you in there. You got to be bold be like going 60 Minutes like advertising basically your company, like this is what he does professional be like yeah you know we're just turning your dicks paraments and we're like manipulating you to keep you in a box, but I guess it works and I guess somebody's like text psycho CEOs will be this be like yeah dude this sounds awesome let me sign you up what's going on as boundless Mine Train.
Daniel Forkner: [39:32] It's a pretty damning thing to say David from the perspective of us the users of these services but I don't think it's particularly brave because but I think it's actually how this person is getting more business because this is what companies want they want entrepreneurs figuring out how to hack us out of our brains to what is it to optimize reinforcement to predictably increase habit formation I mean that's what investors want they want to know that they can grow something at a predictable rate at 10% a year or something like that. So is angry as we maybe David there's so much money to be made off of keeping us glue to the screens the perhaps it's not going away, real quick a listener sent us a comment on the last episode.
David Torcivia: [40:14] Our favorite listener shout out to you you know who you are thank you for your work all the time we really appreciate you.
Daniel Forkner: [40:20] Do we have to say favorite listen I don't want any other listener to feel like they're left out.
David Torcivia: [40:24] Just so you know you're all our favorite listeners some are just more favorite than others.
Daniel Forkner: [40:28] I'm in this listener said hearing you speak of imagining Alternatives makes me wonder how much potential was lost among Millennials thanks to popular entertainment services I don't just mean consumption of entertainment itself but also the means by which is consumed, I grew up playing in arcade and trading CDs with friends today video game addiction and Netflix benches can be uniquely isolating imagine a future where generative AI produces hyper addictive entertainment TaylorMade to individuals at scale, Batavia as we see now this is not the realm of imagination, this is happening right now the effects of these algorithms working to a dick test to our devices they're isolating us at the same time they're exploiting our social vulnerability, widening the gaps between us while dangling the carrot of human Connection in front of us but the more we reach for it the more difficult it becomes to obtain its Mirage that leads us further and further into a desert of loneliness stress, and fatigue but we had to take a step back because maybe we're being a little dramatic and.
[41:35] Are not acid ashes ashes but I think there's going to be people out there who are going to be quick to point out look obviously a company is going.
David Torcivia: [42:00] It's the age of the sixth mass extinction no continues.
Daniel Forkner: [42:17] With so much information at our fingertips we can be anything we want right, Siri find something a little bit disingenuous going on behind the scenes because in this landscape of seemingly infinite Choice our Reliance on our smartphones and our apps has made its vulnerable 2 programmers who limit our choices without are realizing and the results that are reality gets framed in terms that benefit companies, and not ourselves so while we think we have free choice, and that we make rational decisions about our options we're really at a disadvantage and it just happens in a number of ways.
David Torcivia: [42:55] First in any given situation the very existence of options that are presented bar devices Narrows our frame of reference to just the options that we see. 2nd the options themselves often hide information that would be relevant to our decision making process which can as always lead to regret and poor choice.
The Illusion Of Choice Daniel Forkner: [43:15] Interest on Harris that former Chief as a sister Google.
David Torcivia: [43:18] Which by the way is a made-up job that Google created specifically because there's Don circulated this deck that is like a PowerPoint presentation information about how addictive the things that Google was creating were and and other need to be more responsible about it in this Caught Fire Within Google and people were like very open arms and excited about it so well this notion that we're doing something bad they created this position specifically for Tristan Harris the first Chief episys of the company.
Daniel Forkner: [43:47] And then he felt that you couldn't do very much there so he moved on after a short time but he has a great example of how these choices framer reality say you're out with a group of friends when he evening you all decide that you want to find a place to relax and talk so very naturally everyone in the group pulls their phones out the immediately open the Yelp app for the map I for whatever to see what bars are around they compare the pictures and reviews and pick up bar to go to not what's important about this is how the initial goal that question where should we go to relax and talk gets immediately transformed into which bar on this list looks most appealing based on pictures and it's a subtle difference but it is very important and because of this reframing this subtle shift of goals the group won't notice that across the street is a park with live music or that around the corner is an art gallery open for late-night show serving wine and snacks things that would be perfect for relaxing and talking but weren't on that list of options when they open the phone, the fact that we can find so many choices through our devices as giving us the illusion that these devices are the best places for those options in the first place and so we are now at risk of missing all the available choices that exist outside these tailored list and apps the result is that we often choose the very things that serve the interests of these businesses in corporations at the expense of perhaps something better.
David Torcivia: [45:15] We see this play out in a real physical world as well and some of the design choices made in places like casinos or 4 place and more of us in a wreck with grocery stores, the story and design always goes people come to grocery store predominantly for milk, or to visit the pharmacy but if you put these things at the back of the store so you have to walk all the way past all these Isles and delicious food and snacks and vegetables fruits and cereals and drinks whatever, then you going to pick some of those up along the way remember I'm hungry I need to grab this food I'm a little car while I'm here and even though you only showed up from milk you pick up all these other options along the way this is manipulating your behavior through this design and of course the second way that these options affect us is that these choices themselves or well misleading these options presented to us in our apps and other digital Technologies are misleading intentionally when they hide the costs associated with these choices.
Daniel Forkner: [46:11] And clarify choices could be.
David Torcivia: [46:13] Do I click or do I not.
Daniel Forkner: [46:15] Do I even open the Facebook app in the first.
David Torcivia: [46:17] Do I keep scrolling or do I close the app and do something else I mean for example Facebook sends you a notification to view a single image but it doesn't tell you that it's probably going to result in a 15-minute time cost since odds are you're probably not going to stop at just that one image or maybe the app sends you an event notification but it doesn't tell you that in order to view the event got to stop by the news feed first which is not another time sink and next thing you know you've been on the website for 10 minutes.
Daniel Forkner: [46:44] These choices the way these choices are framed it doesn't directly relate to this addiction problem but it's related in the fact that the choices themselves make us more dependent on two devices and that in turn drives us to use the devices more often which opens up more opportunities for these algorithms to take advantage of us to get us hooked, are you for example David I don't use Twitter I barely ever go on it, but in researching for the show I came across the concept of artificial waiting that we talked about earlier I was curious I wanted to know if this really happened so, it was late at night I was about to go to bed and I decided to open the Twitter app on my phone to see if there really was a 2/3 second delay and sure enough there was but the story doesn't end there Dave.
David Torcivia: [47:32] I'm on the edge of my seat keep going Daniel.
Daniel Forkner: [47:34] The story actually ends 10 minutes later after I forced myself out of the app that I haven't used in Forever.
David Torcivia: [47:41] I thought that was going to go somewhere else.
Daniel Forkner: [47:43] And you'll be on that when I was a kid I remember I would go over to my friend's house everyday after school and we would always find very fun and creative ways to hang out for example they were many games we play the beginning by retrieving every couch cushion in the house and stacking them up into a giant for and from there we could have it all kinds of different games and I bring this up because it made me a little sad to realize that today I don't really engage this type of creativity and Imagination when it comes to my friends in the activities that we do, the question how can we have fun today because which games are on the computer right now or what activities are shown when we pull up the map or let's Google the top 10 hiking places in the area.
David Torcivia: [48:24] Look at me now there's a lot of counter-arguments to these things like more just bring the sub addiction is bad these things have negative effects on your health on your attention span on your stress levels like yes this is obvious but lots of people make counter-arguments the most common one then I'm guilty of This I Know It. I'm just waiting on something I'm waiting in line that's why I'm looking at my phone right now I checked it for 20 seconds you know whatever that's it when did it become a mandate that every moment of our free time needs to be filled with something, we spend so much of human history with idle time and allowing our minds to wander and experiencing the creativity and joy that comes along that. Just like you mentioned building forts explore new things to do Daniel it's valuable for mine to be able to just sit or moment it doesn't need to be constantly filled. Embassy scrolling news feeds Facebook feeds Twitter feed Instagram whatever. And it said just observe a moment to sit there and think about the things that are running through your head and it's okay.
Daniel Forkner: [49:18] I'm so guilty of this I was trying to take note and preparation for the show of every time I became distracted with my phone and I would notice the craziest things like I went to go make coffee the other day and my coffee machine it takes like 20 seconds to drip as the coffee is dripping and I'm standing there I get my phone on like how I need to check something and I let you know check my finger what's the update over here, this is the craziest thing that it is exactly what you're talking about I had this brief moment in time where I've not necessarily going to be doing anything so I automatically think I got to fill it with content.
David Torcivia: [49:49] Exactly and this leads me to another comment with her all the time like what what do I care about my attention I'm getting something out of this and then the dopamine hit so like well you know it's ethernet good, but like so many addictive habits small amounts of hitting dopamine Pleasures can spiral into larger and larger addictions, and you can lose so much of your attention so much of your time to these applications through these endless do speeds ever turn ultimately nothing of value back. This impact your time with loved ones or sleep your work and the sense that our lives are in order and maybe even goals and priorities.
Daniel Forkner: [50:24] Will you mention that these things are supposed to give us benefits and I think that's the ultimate problem of all this is that we think our smartphones are devices in our apps but they're just tools that we can use to empower Our Lives as a service after help us increase our productivity apps to entertain us to help us connect with people but when we look under the hood we see that more often than not these tools are not serving us, they are shaping and influencing us intentionally for the benefit of those making profit off our eyeballs they don't work for us we work for them. And people like Tristan Harris they are important voices highlighting some of the Insidious things going on in the design of these things but more often than not they advocate for some kind of top-down chain note wrist on Harris says look Apple needs to fix this problem it's too much to ask us as consumers to change our habits Apple Google all these Services they need to be more responsible in the way that they allow us to interact with our technology and the way they push information to us and frame the things that we see. I wonder if there's a lot of Hope in some very systemic top-down change from these Corporation.
David Torcivia: [51:33] I have zero faith in this imma be completely honest.
Daniel Forkner: [51:36] Well let's look at a quick example David let's look at the children. In January of this year to investors in apple a hedge fund and a pension system with a combined 2 billion dollar ownership stake, sent a letter to the company urging Apple to consider the negative effects that technology is having on childhood development, before we go on and you know I think it's important to point out that these institutional investors calling out Apple for the negative effects of its technology on children it's unlikely that this is purely for altruistic reasons. Institutional investors call companies out because they want better Returns on their money this technology problem is so bad it's so Broad and it affects so many of us that investors are concerned the harm being done to society will hurt the bottom line.
David Torcivia: [52:25] We have reviewed the evidence and we believe there is a clear need for Apple to offer parents more choices and tools to help ensure that young consumers are using their products in an optimal manner, we believe that addressing this issue now will enhance long-term value for all shareholders by creating more choices and options for your customers today and helping to protect the next generation of leaders innovators and customers tomorrow and imagine the Goodwill Apple can generate with parents by partnering with them in this effort and with the next generation of customers, by offering their parents more options to protect their health and well-being that was fun to read.
Daniel Forkner: [53:04] So clearly the investors are concerned about profit at the end of the day but the letter does cite a handful of research pointing to the fact that Apple products and the apps inside them are having negative consequences on children.
David Torcivia: [53:16] So who knows children better than their teachers maybe no one and that's why the University of Alberta asked 2300 teachers a number of questions about their students 67% of teachers sit at the number children distracted in class by digital technology is increasing 3/4 and it's doing ability to focus is going down almost 90% of teachers claim that the number of students with emotional and Social Challenges has risen over the past three to five-year.
Daniel Forkner: [53:42] A US study found a teenager's already much greater risk of suicide when they spend time on electronic devices specifically 3 hours a day makes a teen 35% more likely than someone who spends less than an hour to commit suicide and more than 5 hours a day and teens are 71% more likely to commit suicide.
David Torcivia: [54:03] Other studies suggest devices cause teens to lose sleep and that the ability to empathize with others goes up when children take a break from devices.
Daniel Forkner: [54:12] It's sew in calling for apple to make a change in some way by adding more experts to study this researching this implementing new tools to help parents they say that doing so poses no threat to Apple because unlike other technology companies Apple's business model is not predicated on excessive use of their products, but is that really true is Apple not concerned with people excessively using their product, are they like these investor suggest interested in making us more responsible consumers of their product is there any hope that we have that they will Implement changes to encourage us to use their products less. The same entrepreneurs that were behind that boundless AI company designed to increase the addictive lure of these apps and technologies will they also try to start an app on the side I guess too be a little bit more philanthropic with their time.
David Torcivia: [55:07] Now this is repentance for their sins Daniel.
Daniel Forkner: [55:10] Well it didn't go through it was an app called space and the idea was that it would create a 12 second delay when users open certain apps the idea was that it would allow you to have a Moment of Zen before being flooded with this information overload that is in our social media apps and well they weren't allowed to put it on the store, Apple apparently told the entrepreneurs that it would not support any app that encourage people to use the phone less.
David Torcivia: [55:37] So who do we look to the save us from ourselves and The Addictive nature of these applications the vulnerable psychology of our brains and a world where we live with the slot machine in our pocket.
Daniel Forkner: [55:50] I don't think we should expect the CEO of Apple or the CEO of Facebook, to willingly Implement any change it would encourage us to use their products last I mean it just doesn't make sense I mean we are a profit driven world and no one would willingly sacrifice prop it's not when so much money is at stake, but you know we have talked in the past about how employees of companies that do bad things should stand up to those bad things and then sometimes they can have a positive impact and help steer their companies in better directions there are some tech professionals.
The Children [56:24] Discuss the need for a professional code of ethics and public shaming of companies that have used these tools to a dick. If there was some kind of professional code of ethics you might give programmers and employees at these companies a little bit more power to stand up to their boss where is right now all they can do is say I don't believe in this but imagine if they could go to their employer and say well what you're asking us to do goes against the code of ethics that all of us fall under as part of the professional organizations that were part of or you know the imagine how much more Power employees would have they went to their boss and said look if we Implement these types of tools and tactics we will be publicly shamed and we might lose business and it's possible that that could have some kind of marginal change in a positive direction.
David Torcivia: [57:09] As optimistic as that is Daniel and as much as I want to believe in the power of organized labor which is absolutely one of the great forces of change in our world I think the globalized nature of the programming of these apps of the social networks mix that organization difficult or impossible and I hope one day to be proved wrong about this but we're not going to find the fixes for these problems coming from these companies themselves, because the problem is the perverse incentives of the system. Yes we know that these apps are making us sick of damaging the way our brains work of the greeting our attention of giving a stress but the fact of the matter is this is a cost levied on other people. And it's a side effect of extracting attention from us and converting that attention to ad revenue and this is a profitable business.
[58:02] Success in converting are tension and are addictive Nature's into dollars, as long as the profit incentive exists for this kind of exploitation these companies are going to continue to use every trick in the book every addictive technique and every customized AI to optimize is exploitation of attention for their bottom line, we will not find answers and Regulation and governments that are controlled in large part by the lobbyists of these groups but fortunately while we wait for labor to organize and take a stand for what's right to them and the rest of us we as individuals. A lot of power with the effect that these addictive devices have on ourselves, and it's a lot of things that we can individually do until the systems that create these perverse incentives can be fixed by Austin others.
Daniel Forkner: [58:48] Did real quick before we get onto some practical ideas for how people can deal with these Technologies I think it's interesting what you said about how these companies extract our attention there was a researcher at University of South Carolina who suggests that in this economic environment that we find ourselves in which we've talked about in the past of declining real wages, at the same time that productivity is soaring and that we are working more than ever was researchers suggest that part of the reason that this productivity is not being captured in the wages of workers, is because some of this productivity is being driven by our social media use, so as we become more stressed and we work more and more and we're expected to respond to emails at all times of the day we find breaks more and more often in the social media apps, but it is that very activity of engaging with these things that is driving the profit and revenue for these companies then reinvesting that money to get us even more. So I think I would have to agree with you that there's probably not a lot of Hope for these companies changing their practice.
David Torcivia: [59:54] But like I mentioned in the meantime we can take our devices in her hand and make actual changes on our own lives and encourage others around us to do the same so for starters uninstall these apps odds are you don't need to check them on the phone if you can resist it take them off as we mentioned in.
[1:00:14] Time once or twice a day to open Instagram check your feed set a time limit and set it down that's it that's all you need we mentioned in the past that may be sitting your device screen to grayscale and accessibility options decreases the amount of interaction that you have
Going Forward? [1:00:28] with your device every time you pick it up it's black and white it's less of a joy to use its less addictive choice of red for those notification icons doesn't have an effect on you because it's just a subtle shade of gray you that much less likely to click on.
Daniel Forkner: [1:00:41] Or if you do keep some notifications only keep those for direct human communication so these are your text messages these are, phone calls don't keep your phone next to you in bed this is something I try to do is I actually charge my phone in the bathroom next to my bed so there's in a completely different room and I actually have to get out of bed in the morning to turn it off but it prevents me from Jessie, keeping myself up harming my ability to get a good night's rest even more.
David Torcivia: [1:01:08] It's beyond the scope of this episode but it's also a great idea not to have these screens in front of your face before you go to bed the blue light that is the typical light that comes out of a phone or laptop will mess with your circadian rhythm and make it that much harder for you to fall asleep, trying to decide maybe an hour before you go to bed with electronics free no this is a good thing to Duke's continuously throughout your life to schedule your electronic use.
Daniel Forkner: [1:01:30] And every now and then try taking a little digital detox leave your phone at home see what it feels like to go about your day not even having the option to check your phone you may find that you're stressed decreases a little bit and if you're really worried about missing out on sofa connections maybe just let your closest friends and loved ones know that you'll be unavailable or half of the day or however long it is.
David Torcivia: [1:01:52] Also make use of your phone to do not disturb mode this is a great way to disable notifications temporarily why you need to concentrate instead turn your attention elsewhere words more needed. There are so many things you can do to help detox yourself from these devices did Kiel your attention and in this addiction and they get easier as time goes on and it's still need to talk about social media and phones as an addiction but it really is and we all suffer from it at least in part just like the sugar that we talked about before in that episode just like many of us have with caffeine use a real addiction to have actual impact on her health and the other comment and accepted doesn't mean that we should tolerate them doesn't mean that we should encourage them and it said we should talk to each other about them be conscious of the effects they have on our health and help each other work towards a healthy the world.
Daniel Forkner: [1:02:39] Beyond the Practical David I think the biggest thing I got out of the show is that I have a different relationship with my phone now I mean, it's still hard for me to break away from some of these physical habits but the way I view my phone has shifted a little bit more before I just kind of saw it as this tool this very neutral thing that I can retrieve the information I want sometimes it helps me out giving me notifications of important things but now I see my phone a little bit less as a neutral to land more kind of has an adversary to be honest with you that it's trying to suck me in it's not an accident it's trying.
[1:03:26] I want to retrieve when I want it I'm not going to look at my phone just because I feel like I have nothing better to do I'm going to try as I go forward to be a little bit more intentional, to put myself back in the steering control of this crazy crazy digital technology ride.
David Torcivia: [1:03:43] As always that's a lot to think about you can read about all these topics and much more on our website at ashes ashes. Org.
Daniel Forkner: [1:03:53] A lot of time and research goes into making these shows possible and we will never use ads to support the show so if you appreciate it and would like us to keep going you are listener can support us by giving us review and recommending is to a friend.
David Torcivia: [1:04:07] And in fact you made it to the end of the show so you get the special reward good job gamify ashes gamify the world.
Daniel Forkner: [1:04:14] That's right David are lucky listeners if you share this with a friend if you share ashes ashes with a friend sent him an email sending a message on your phone and you take a screenshot and you email that to us well you're going to get a point one point for every share and we're going to have a Leaderboard on the website associated with this episode and if you want to make it on that leaderboard and get to the top of the scoreboards get that first place prize you can have to share this episode.
David Torcivia: [1:04:37] Email us the links or screenshots of your sharing shows how many likes,
Practical Tips And Tricks [1:04:42] comments whatever it is that you get and will count all those Adam up level you up.
Daniel Forkner: [1:04:47] Rack up those points.
David Torcivia: [1:04:48] And soon you'll be at the top of the ashes ashes gaming board in and now you were making fun of the game of vacation of the world here but we have to do have a prize and will send it out to to whoever wins this after I learn much time do we feel is relevant a pass.
Daniel Forkner: [1:05:01] Make it to the top first top three will get a prize free of charge is going to be great so send your submissions down to our email address contact at ashes ashes. Org can you make it to the top.
David Torcivia: [1:05:13] You can also find us on our social media at ashes ashes cast or on Reddit at our / ashes ashes cast next week we're going to turn into something way every year in Darker like you would expect from us but don't worry we'll get through it together.
Daniel Forkner: [1:05:29] Until next time.
David Torcivia: [1:05:30] This is ashes ashes.
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